Yeomanry badge

[moulie11]

Hello all

 

I'm a volunteer at my local museum and spending this quiet period cataloguing a collection of buttons and badges.

 

In the collection is the attached oval badge, on which is inscribed Wincanton Troop in cursive letters. I'm guessing this would be pre-First World War in date but am hoping someone might be able to confirm that for me, or otherwise.

 

In any case, does anyone know what it might be, exactly? Where might it have been worn? I've done some scouting about online for comparative examples but can't seem to find anything relevant.

 

Apologies for the poor images - I don't have access to my proper camera at the moment! 

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Luke

[Gareth Davies]

Wincanton Troop was part of C Sqn The North Somerset Yeomanry. I am going to make a guess that it was used on some of their tack.

[moulie11]

12 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Wincanton Troop was part of C Sqn The North Somerset Yeomanry. I am going to make a guess that it was used on some of their tack.

 

Thanks for your reply, Gareth. I'd wondered about it being part of the tack - I can't imagine it being from a uniform, somehow. I'm not sure what the fixing would have been. It's a shame that hasn't survived intact.

 

Would you hazard a guess at a possible date?

 

Luke

[Old Owl]

Hi Luke,

An indication of size may give a clue, but looking at the fixings (screwed posts?) on the rear indicates that this badge would have been fitted to a leather item, whether a crossbelt/pouch or even a horse leather I am not sure.

Hopefully Frogsmile will be along soon to possibly identify the item.

I think that this item will be from the early Victorian era or possibly even earlier, because some Yeomanry Cavalry units were raised in the second half of the 18th Century.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[moulie11]

8 minutes ago, Old Owl said:

Hi Luke,

An indication of size may give a clue, but looking at the fixings (screwed posts?) on the rear indicates that this badge would have been fitted to a leather item, whether a crossbelt/pouch or even a horse leather I am not sure.

Hopefully Frogsmile will be along soon to possibly identify the item.

I think that this item will be from the early Victorian era or possibly even earlier, because some Yeomanry Cavalry units were raised in the second half of the 18th Century.

Hope this helps,

Robert

 

Thanks, Robert. That helps a lot.

 

Apologies for not giving the dimensions - should have done! It's approximately 33mm x 42mm. It's a shame the back is so corroded, as there may have been some sort of maker's stamp to help date it but I also wondered if this was from the early Victorian period. The cursive text may be an indicator of that.

 

Fingers crossed that Frogsmile spots this. But thanks for your help.

 

Luke

[Old Owl]

Hi Luke,

 

Judging by the dimensions it is unlikely to be a cross-belt plate (too small) but more likely a horse harness related item--very interesting all the same.

 

Best of luck in your quest,

 

Robert

[FROGSMILE]

It’s too well made to be from horse tack.  Getting metal engraved in cursive script like that was expensive.  It’s not an uncommon style and if not for a cross belt it’s likely to be the clasp for a Yeomanry cavalry waist belt.  Cartouche cross belt plates were not always as large as they later became.

 

Edited 7 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

Almost certainly pre 1900, probably first part of the 19th centuary. The first mention of a Wincanton troop comes in 1844 when the Regiment was divided into two wings, Wincanton being part of the right wing with Frome, Mells, Wells.

I can find no indication what the item might have been used for but if i were to guess... nope ..no idea.

The shape is wrong for a bitt boss, the orientation of the script is wrong for a belt plate. 

Do you mind if i show this in other groups???

Tim B 

[FROGSMILE]

Cross belt plates usually have one hook and two studs.  This example of a plate appears to have had four fixture points which will be significant in making an ID.

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s too well made to be from horse tack.  Getting metal engraved in cursive script like that was expensive.  It’s not an uncommon style and if not for a cross belt it’s likely to be the clasp for a Yeomanry cavalry waist belt.  Cartouche cross belt plates were not always as large as they later became.

 

Cartridge pouch plate? Possibly ? 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Yorkshire Dragoon said:

Cartridge pouch plate? Possibly ? 

Yes, that’s what I meant by Cartouche belt plate.  The orientation of engraved lettering was not always worn in an upright position and the four fastenings might have been designed to go through belts crossing at the front.  The officers version being more elaborate with its engraving.

Edited 7 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[moulie11]

Thanks for the replies, chaps. That's a lot of information to digest but all really, really useful.

 

I've been able to access the original paperwork that was produced when the item was donated in 1975 and apparently it's made of bronze and was dug up in a garden in Ilminster.

 

Tim B - Please do feel free to share to any other groups you belong to. I'd be grateful for any additional insights, as it would be good to update the museum's records. The details are seriously lacking at the moment!

 

Luke

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, that’s what I meant by Cartouche belt plate.  The orientation of engraved lettering was not always worn in an upright position and the four fastenings might have been designed to go through belts crossing at the front.  The officers version being more elaborate with its engraving.

I was thinking about the pouch flap itself but you could very well be right.

[moulie11]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, that’s what I meant by Cartouche belt plate.  The orientation of engraved lettering was not always worn in an upright position and the four fastenings might have been designed to go through belts crossing at the front.  The officers version being more elaborate with its engraving.

 

That's an interesting thought, Frogsmile. Certainly a possibility and makes sense with the cursive lettering on our example, as you say.

[Old Owl]

Looks like a good match size wise too--particularly on the second image.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, moulie11 said:

 

That's an interesting thought, Frogsmile. Certainly a possibility and makes sense with the cursive lettering on our example, as you say.

I think that’s what it is, there was a distinct period when it was very fashionable for the belt plates to be engraved, rather than with ‘mounted’ (superimposed) designs.  The engravers art was much admired and table tureens and silver platters were engraved in similar ways.  Very much a Regency thing.

Edited 7 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[moulie11]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that’s what it is, there was a distinct period when it was very fashionable for the belt plates to be engraved, rather than with ‘mounted’ (superimposed) designs.  The engravers art was much admired and table tureens and silver platters were engraved in similar ways.  Very much a Regency thing.

 

Thanks, Frogsmile. That's a huge help - and what a great little item to have in the collection. Why is it that I never manage to dig up such gems in my garden? All I manage to dig up are stones!

 

I'll have to do some further research into the Wincanton Troop. Tim B reckons the earliest mention of them is 1844 but there must be something earlier if the ID for the item is correct.

 

A very interesting thing all told.

 

Luke

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, moulie11 said:

 

Thanks, Frogsmile. That's a huge help - and what a great little item to have in the collection. Why is it that I never manage to dig up such gems in my garden? All I manage to dig up are stones!

 

I'll have to do some further research into the Wincanton Troop. Tim B reckons the earliest mention of them is 1844 but there must be something earlier if the ID for the item is correct.

 

A very interesting thing all told.

 

Luke

Looking at its condition and general appearance I’d say it was from the very early days of the Wincanton Troop’s existence, but bear in mind that the basic weapons of sabre and pistol and their mode of carriage changed very little between the 1790s and 1844.  The principal change was the switch from flint lock to percussion lock.  Ergo it’s quite possible that the plate might have been in use for some time.  The yeomanry were auxiliary cavalry and paid for by the members themselves plus some small funding from county authorities, not least because they were the policing force of the day too, so they were quite parsimonious with buying new kit unless absolutely justified.

Edited 7 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[moulie11]

Interesting that you mentioned the engraving of table tureens and silver platters earlier, Frogsmile, as I've found that one such tureen went up for auction at Sotheby's. It was presented by the members of the Wincanton Troop of the East Somerset Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry to their captain, George Messiter, in 1815. See here: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/collections-silver-vertu-ceramics-russian-works-of-art-n09491/lot.186.html. 

 

Additionally, I've also found a reference in The British Volunteer Movement, 1794-1814 by Austin Gee of the Wincanton Troop being part of the Somerset Volunteer Provisional Cavalry in 1798. So, it seems the unit was indeed extant for some time before 1844 and a Regency date for the cartouche could be spot on.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, moulie11 said:

Interesting that you mentioned the engraving of table tureens and silver platters earlier, Frogsmile, as I've found that one such tureen went up for auction at Sotheby's. It was presented by the members of the Wincanton Troop of the East Somerset Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry to their captain, George Messiter, in 1815. See here: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/collections-silver-vertu-ceramics-russian-works-of-art-n09491/lot.186.html. 

 

Additionally, I've also found a reference in The British Volunteer Movement, 1794-1814 by Austin Gee of the Wincanton Troop being part of the Somerset Volunteer Provisional Cavalry in 1798. So, it seems the unit was indeed extant for some time before 1844 and a Regency date for the cartouche could be spot on.

Thank you for the feedback I genuinely did not know about the tureen you mention, just the fashion for engraving.  There’s quite interesting detail about the yeomanry in the suburban militarism website here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/suburbanmilitarism.wordpress.com/2018/08/25/foress-yeomanry-costumes/amp/

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

24 minutes ago, moulie11 said:

Interesting that you mentioned the engraving of table tureens and silver platters earlier, Frogsmile, as I've found that one such tureen went up for auction at Sotheby's. It was presented by the members of the Wincanton Troop of the East Somerset Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry to their captain, George Messiter, in 1815. See here: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/collections-silver-vertu-ceramics-russian-works-of-art-n09491/lot.186.html. 

 

Additionally, I've also found a reference in The British Volunteer Movement, 1794-1814 by Austin Gee of the Wincanton Troop being part of the Somerset Volunteer Provisional Cavalry in 1798. So, it seems the unit was indeed extant for some time before 1844 and a Regency date for the cartouche could be spot on.

Hi Luke,

I'm just reading The North Somerset Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry, 1850  and so far I'm up to 1818 with no mention of Wincanton however your find shows there were obviously other regiments in the area. Nice find.

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

“Longleat, Nov. 28, 1830.

“Dear Sir.—Having received from the Magistrates of Wincanton a repre sentation that, in consequence of the disturbed state of the country adjoining the Divisions of Wincanton and Shepton Mallet, in which they act as Magis trates, and from the absence of military force, it is desirable, for the preserva tion of the public peace, the North Somerset Cavalry should be forthwith called out, I request you will immediately order out the regiment of the North Somerset Yeomanry Cavalry upon actual service, and afford assistance to the Magistrates at Bruton, Wincanton, and Shepton Mallet, or other places where aid may be required.

“Your obedient, humble servant,

“BATH.”

 

“To Colonel Horner, Mells Park.”  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Yorkshire Dragoon said:

I was thinking about the pouch flap itself but you could very well be right.

 

 I don’t think it was from the pouch flap in this particular case.  It wouldn’t have needed four fixtures.

[Yorkshire Dragoon]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 I don’t think it was from the pouch flap in this particular case.  It wouldn’t have needed four fixtures.

I believe you are right ...

 

Tim B