Uniform Identification 1918 Please

[Alyx]

Many thanks for the interesting information and link !

 

I don't have Find My Past either - with Ancestry and My Heritage I can't really justify paying for another site - so may just have to do without the info !

 

I have a question about my great grandfather who died in WW1,  so I'll post that separately but I wondered, is there a forum like this where I could pick the brains of someone who would know about soldiers in the 41st Foot and 69th foot in the 1820's ?

 

Many thanks for all the help - it's much appreciated.

Alyx

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Madmeg said:

-Bingo?

find my past -the next listing on the page is for his CTC record with the same regt number and DoB- PoB for the older record is Sussex not Middlesex.

Edward Charles

Mockford

1862

6477

Tank Corps

Middlesex

Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'

 

Hoping someone can find out some more details and post them- I'm not a subscriber.

So this particular Mockford ended up in the Tank Corps?

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/05/2020 at 13:30, Alyx said:

Many thanks for the interesting information and link !

 

I don't have Find My Past either - with Ancestry and My Heritage I can't really justify paying for another site - so may just have to do without the info !

 

I have a question about my great grandfather who died in WW1,  so I'll post that separately but I wondered, is there a forum like this where I could pick the brains of someone who would know about soldiers in the 41st Foot and 69th foot in the 1820's ?

 

Many thanks for all the help - it's much appreciated.

Alyx

 

 

Aly, I forgot to reply to your latter questions.  Your Mockford in the photo would not have been obligated for service as he would have been too old, but like so many old soldiers he must have volunteered for service and as a very experienced staff sergeant (and probably warrant officer too) he would have been a prime candidate for commissioning in the special officer status reserved for old soldiers, that of ‘quartermaster’.

As for why Royal Fusiliers, I imagine that they were the first to accept him, but they were also a relatively high status regiment whose secondary title had been the “City of London Regiment” since 1881.  Their headquarters were in the Tower of London.  They were not, however, associated with Woolwich, which at that time laid in Kent.
 

However, there was also a separate regiment, comprised entirely of Territorial Force (TF) auxiliary soldiers, that very confusingly was titled “The London Regiment”.  It was numbered from 1st to 28th battalions with a couple of gaps, with the battalion’s having some historical association with the regular army regiments in AND around London (i.e. the Counties that later lost chunks to the new ‘Greater London’, which didn’t exist back then).  Most of these TF London Regiment battalions had their own, discrete cap badges, but just six chose, with agreement, to wear the same cap badges as the regulars of the Royal Fusiliers and Queen’s (Royal West Surrey) Regiment.

 

Because of these foibles it’s almost certain that we can say your forebear was a quartermaster for one of the TF London Regiment battalions that wore the Royal Fusiliers cap badge.  These were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) Territorial Force.  Each of these battalions also formed two duplicates, e.g. 2/2nd and 3/2nd London Regiment, and each of these would have required a quartermaster too.  It seems likely to me that it is one of these latter, known as second and third line units, for which he was probably quartermaster. 
 

Finally, I have sent you a private message regarding your last question about the 41st and 69th Foot outside this forum’s focus.

Edited 5 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Madmeg]

Because no one can access these records ATM I am just wondering if the Tank corps refers to perhaps the start or end of his subsequent service? It looks to be the same man- the DoB and Regt number are the same- would he have kept that number? otherwise it is a gobsmackingly huge co-incidence! 

 

Anyway I'm just remembering the difficulties I had when tracking down my Grandmother's brother.I have photos of him in the uniform of the KSLI but his records turn up under the Monmouth Regt which was his last port of call before discharge and that is how he is indexed. He spent most of his war in the KSLI however before being transferred. This could be what we are seeing with Edward Charles I would suggest. 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Because no one can access these records ATM I am just wondering if the Tank corps refers to perhaps the start or end of his subsequent service? It looks to be the same man- the DoB and Regt number are the same- would he have kept that number? otherwise it is a gobsmackingly huge co-incidence! 

 

Anyway I'm just remembering the difficulties I had when tracking down my Grandmother's brother.I have photos of him in the uniform of the KSLI but his records turn up under the Monmouth Regt which was his last port of call before discharge and that is how he is indexed. He spent most of his war in the KSLI however before being transferred. This could be what we are seeing with Edward Charles I would suggest. 

Commissioned officers did not have numbers during WW1.  The idea of the gentlemanly classes who traditionally made up the officer corps having something so vulgar as a number was a step too far at the time. 

[Madmeg]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Commissioned officers did not have numbers during WW1.  The idea of the gentlemanly classes who traditionally made up the officer corps having something so vulgar as a number was a step too far at the time. 

BUT- if they had come up from the ranks they would have a number attached from their previous service. That is the situation for my grandfather. He enlisted and had a number got promoted to sarjeant then transferred and got a commission into the RFC at which point his number disappeared from his officers records. However on his MIC his previous regt rank and number are shown. 

If Edward Charles joined up again (in the Territorials) surely it would be at his previous rank of sergeant? complete with number before getting his commisson. Alternatively as these records are the burnt files and as all I have access to is the index it could simply be that the originals have a note of his previous number somewhere in the ? damaged? records which has made it to the index. Nor do we know when he got his commission relative to his joining up, or exactly what has been transcribed for the index.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Madmeg said:

BUT- if they had come up from the ranks they would have a number attached from their previous service. That is the situation for my grandfather. He enlisted and had a number got promoted to sarjeant then transferred and got a commission into the RFC at which point his number disappeared from his officers records. However on his MIC his previous regt rank and number are shown. 

If Edward Charles joined up again (in the Territorials) surely it would be at his previous rank of sergeant? complete with number before getting his commisson. Alternatively as these records are the burnt files and as all I have access to is the index it could simply be that the originals have a note of his previous number somewhere in the ? damaged? records which has made it to the index. Nor do we know when he got his commission relative to his joining up, or exactly what has been transcribed for the index.

We know from the inquirer that he was at least a staff sergeant (Farrier).

 

It does seem probable that his record was one of those burnt.

 

His commissioning should presumably be listed in the London Gazette.

 

It’s not impossible I suppose that he was seconded from the RF to be quartermaster of a RTC battalion, but given his advanced age it seems on balance less likely unless there was such a unit in Britain.

Edited 17 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Madmeg]

forgive my ignorance- but would a staff sergeant not have a number once he reached that rank?

 

The record is shown as being from the burnt set.

 

My point is that this is an INDEX only , that whoever has indexed it has pulled out various bits of info for the indexing which does not mean that what is shown in said index reflects any one moment in time. He could have started in the Tanks and then gone onto the Fusilliers and the index does not record it- or he finished up in the tanks after this photo and only the later service has been transcribed - as was the case with my great uncle who only shows up in his last regt. The number could be his historical (and it does match) number from his rank service whether or not he was still referred to by that number in later years. The incorrect place of birth could simply be where he re-enlisted or was living because that is what has made it to the index. 

 

London Gazette i a good idea. I find it  **** to search though :-(

 

[Madmeg]

well a quick search of the Gazette from 1880 to 1920 for Mockford shows plenty of them but no Edward Charles! only the Joseph I found earlier who died in 1917 :-(

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Madmeg said:

forgive my ignorance- but would a staff sergeant not have a number once he reached that rank?

 

The record is shown as being from the burnt set.

 

My point is that this is an INDEX only , that whoever has indexed it has pulled out various bits of info for the indexing which does not mean that what is shown in said index reflects any one moment in time. He could have started in the Tanks and then gone onto the Fusilliers and the index does not record it- or he finished up in the tanks after this photo and only the later service has been transcribed - as was the case with my great uncle who only shows up in his last regt. The number could be his historical (and it does match) number from his rank service whether or not he was still referred to by that number in later years. The incorrect place of birth could simply be where he re-enlisted or was living because that is what has made it to the index. 

 

London Gazette i a good idea. I find it  **** to search though :-(

 

Yes of course a staff sergeant had a number I wasn’t suggesting otherwise, but just referring to your mention that he had been a sergeant.  I suppose now that you meant generically.

 

I accept what you say regarding fragments of information in Medal indexing.  It just seems to me that the advanced age of this gentleman when the Tank Corps evolved from the Heavy Branch MGC, as well as his life experience rooted in equine matters makes it unlikely that he would have been attractive as a commissioned quartermaster.

Edited 19 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Madmeg said:

well a quick search of the Gazette from 1880 to 1920 for Mockford shows plenty of them but no Edward Charles! only the Joseph I found earlier who died in 1917 :-(

I have read several people say the same regarding searching the London Gazette.  All commissions were (are still) listed there and usually promotions too.  Whoever he is he must be in there somewhere.

[PRC]

On 16/05/2020 at 15:37, FROGSMILE said:

Because of these foibles it’s almost certain that we can say your forebear was a quartermaster for one of the TF London Regiment battalions that wore the Royal Fusiliers cap badge.  These were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) Territorial Force.  Each of these battalions also formed two duplicates, e.g. 2/2nd and 3/2nd London Regiment, and each of these would have required a quartermaster too.  It seems likely to me that it is one of these latter, known as second and third line units, for which he was probably quartermaster. 

 

 

On 16/05/2020 at 08:18, Alyx said:

Hello - I just wanted to let you know that, thanks to your kind help with insight and information, I think I have identified my mystery soldier !

 

Piecing together all the info I have, I believe he is Edward Charles Mockford, who married my grandmothers Aunt - hence the photos having Uncle and Aunt on them.

I have tracked Edward with his family in the various censuses and he moved about - including Gramby Barracks in Devonport and Dover. 

Your eagle-eyes spotted that he may have been in the Boer War - and yes he served in South Africa from 30th Sept 1899 to 6th June 1902.

 

His son Edward Henry Mockford - who must have grown up in army quarters looking at the census info - then joined the Army Service Corps in 1905 (was this a new name for the C&T Corps ??) and served through the First World War seeing action in France but survived to live until 1970.

 

 

From the picture we have of him in 1918 you have identified he was then in the Royal Fusiliers - would he have volunteered to go back into the Army ? Or were they called up ?

Wouldn't he have gone back to his old corps ? I wondered why the Royal Fusiliers ? I see a little bomb on their cap badge and a lot of my ancestors were based in Woolwich where the Arsenal was - presumably making bombs ! - were there any connection of the two (or am I putting 2 & 2 together to make 5 !)

Would there be records of Edward senior for WW1 - his army papers I have seem to stop in 1906 ?

 

A later photo of Edward with his adult children confirms his identity from the photo too.

 

Alyx

 

Before I noticed you said you've confirmed him from a later photo, I'd already checked out the November 1918 Army List looking to see if I could establish a seniority date for your relative and so a date for a likely appearance in the London Gazette. As a result I may be about to set the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons. I was looking for Quartermasters serving with the units @FROGSMILE had identified at that point of time, (end of October 1918), your choices are:-

 

1st (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, (Royal Fusiliers).

Ibbs, T.C. , D.S.O.  Major 5th February 1908.

Rogers, G.S., Captain – attached 2/6 Bn. Suffolk Regiment. 27th March 1915.

 

1st (Reserve) Battalion, The London Regiment.

Warrener J, Captain, retired pay, also honorary major with 2nd Battalion. 11th May 1912

 

2nd (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, (Royal Fusiliers).

(r ) Warrener J, Captain, retired pay, Major, 11th May 1912

(1)   Shackleton, A.G., Captain, 8th February 1915

(2)   Miller, E, Captain, 10th September 1915.

 

3rd (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, (Royal Fusiliers).

(r ) Coombe, L.W.H., Lieutenant, 14th October 1914.

Collumbell, G. Captain, 8th July 1915.

 

3rd (Reserve) Battalion, The London Regiment.

Coombe, L.W.H., Lieutenant, 14th October 1914.

 

4th (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, (Royal Fusiliers).

(T) Cragg, W.J. Captain, 18th March 1915 / 18th February 1915.

(r ) Fullalove, J.J. Captain , 12th June 1915.

(1)   Faulkner, P.H., Honorary Lieutenant, 9th June 1917.

 

I then had a quick scan through the quarter-masters of the other Battalions of the London Regiment and went a bit cross-eyed, but I don’t think there were any likely candidates for Mockford.

 

I then checked out the Active List and Reserve of Offices in the same source – there is only an H. Mockford listed. As a check I tried the March 1918 Army List and that had a F.S. Mockford and an H. Mockford.

H. Mockford was a Bedford Regiment Second Lieutenant.

 

As far as I’m aware the London Regiment or it’s Milita predecessors didn’t sent any formal units to the Boer War. There was one raised shortly after the outbreak of the War – the City Imperial Volunteers.

https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=542

 

As this officer is believed to be wearing Boer-War related medals I tried looking for a match for the surname of the only two Lieutenants from the November 1918 Army Lists. There is no obvious candidate for an L. Coombe on any units service medal roll, or listed on the Anglo-Boer War website. There is however a P. Faulkner – and he served with the City Imperial Volunteers.

 

Apologies if I’ve missed something along the way in my searches. That either call into question the identification of the officer in the picture as Edward Charles Mockford, or the identification of the unit.

 

Peter

Edited 19 May , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant detective work Peter.  I think you have rather ruled out that the RF officer pictured could be Mockford.

 

The predecessors to the London Regiment battalions had, with very varying degrees of enthusiasm and adherence, all formed ‘Volunteer Battalions’ (VB) of regiments of the line.  As such, some of the VB’s individual volunteers went to make up consolidated and so-called ‘Service Companies’, in direct support to the regiment’s with which they were aligned, deployed battalions. Ergo, some VB individuals (only) might have earned the associated campaign medals.

Edited 19 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Checking for surviving officers' records held by the National Archive the two choices are Lieutenant Percy Howsagoe Faulkner (1914-1918)

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C693870 and Captain Percy Reginald Faulkner (1914-1917) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C693871

 

A check of Medal Index Cards at the National Archive for a "Percy" "Faulkner" "London" brings up no matches for Percy Reginald, (and there is no match on CWGC).

 

Percy Howsagoe Faulkner was Quartermaster-Serjeant 1935 1st London Regiment and then Lieutenant & Quartermaster, 1st London Regiment.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2195590

The card itself, (courtesy of a free account on Ancestry where he is indexed as P H Faulkner) shows that he first landed in France on the 11th March 1915 - as did the 1st Battalion.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

 

It shows he was commissioned but doesn't give a date. Although he has been catalogued at the National Archive as an Officer on the 1st Battalion, from the notes on the card it should be the 4th Battalion - which ties in with the November 1918 Army List.

 

The card was originally raised with the surname shown as "FAULKENER" and had to be amended, so there may be records kicking around under that spelling.

 

He was entitled to the 1914/15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. The card also mentions the issue of emblems which I would normally associate with a Mention in Despatches. There is a brief one liner on the back of the card but no London Gazette date.

 

As an officer he had to apply for his medal. He did so in what looks to be July 1921, (or possibly 1927) and gave two contact addresses.

1) 1st London R. (RF), Handel St, W.C.

2) Vine Cottage, Lower Green, Mitcham, Surrey.

 

The birth of Percy Howsagoe Faulkner was recorded in the Islington District in Q2 1872, (so 46 when the picture was taken). Married in Camberwell Q3 1901 but mariages weren't cross-referenced then  - so from the same page of the register he married either Florence Thompson, or Constance Elizabeth Windle. I would normally look to confirm from the subsequent 1911 Census, but couldn't find Percy. - Correction, while re-reading this post I tried again and found him as the married head of the household at - Vine Cottage, Lower Green Mitcham

 

His wife was the 37 year old Florence and during their 10 year marriage the couple have had three children.

 

Percy gets a mention on Rootschat in connection with this family bible. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=392393.0

 

I'll stop there and wait Alyx to catch up as I have no idea how this fits into the family.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[steve fuller]

On 19/05/2020 at 13:27, PRC said:

H. Mockford was a Bedford Regiment Second Lieutenant.

If it helps to eliminate / verify - Harry Mockford; enlisted as Private 16647 Hampshire Regiment, to France 27 July 1915, commissioned as Second Lieutenant Bedfordshire regiment, posted 4th Battalion in France (Royal Naval Division) 20/4/1918, wounded 28/9/1918, Silver War Badge issued 18/8/1919

[Alyx]

Hello

Many thanks but my search was for an Edward Henry Mockford, so may not be the same chap ?

 

[Madmeg]

On 20/05/2020 at 00:27, PRC said:

A later photo of Edward with his adult children confirms his identity from the photo too.

Just noted this from Aly's earier post- it would appear he CAN'T be any of the others identified if he matches Alyx's later photo...