Seaforth and Cameron bayonet fighting class photo - probably Bedford 1914/15

[rgalley]

I'm 99.99% certain that the attached photo was taken in Bedford Park during the winter 1914/15. Once the current lockdown is eased I'll take a visit to try and pinpoint the exact spot. The Park provided one of the Seaforth and Cameron Brigade's main training areas when it was stationed in Bedford with the Highland Division from Aug 1914 - May 1915.

 

Of particular note is the man sitting in the centre of the group. He seems to be wearing civilian clothes, although his shirt collar (with pin) and tie have a military look about them. He appears to be wearing quite a substantial white pullover with a large collar under his jacket / blazer. He is wearing a badge on his lapel which I think is a smaller version of the Seaforth's Glengarry badge, although the stag's antlers do not show up on the photo. He carries a cane. I did wonder if he might be either a PTI (the instructor), or a visitor with a Seaforth connection.

 

Any thoughts welcomed and appreciated as always.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The white wool jumper with collar was one of two types issued for physical training at that time, the other had red and black rings like a bumble bee, but the latter only issued to PT Staff of the Corps of Gymmasia.  I suspect the white jumper man is the instructor, but perhaps retired from regular service.

Edited 1 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rgalley]

Thanks Frogsmile, he does have a time-served look about him.

[CorporalPunishment]

If that photo was taken in Bedford then I can't help wondering if any of those lads were among the many that were struck down by the measles/scarlet fever/diphtheria outbreak that occured back then. 135 men died of whom 33 lie in Bedford Cemetery.  Pete.

[rgalley]

Pete, The 4th Camerons lost 26 men and 6th Seaforth 11 while the Division was in Bedford that winter. Cause of death was more often attributed the secondary infection - bronchial pneumonia. Richard

[4thGordons]

Nice image Richard - glad I didn't bid on it!

I too thought it was probably the park.

Did you see the 5th Seaforths image also (seated group in front of a large stone building?) I did get that one but suspect under current conditions it will take a while to get to me!

Hope this finds you and yours well!

Chris

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, rgalley said:

Thanks Frogsmile, he does have a time-served look about him.

Yes, I think so too.  Glad to help. 

Edited 1 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rgalley]

9 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Nice image Richard - glad I didn't bid on it!

I too thought it was probably the park.

Did you see the 5th Seaforths image also (seated group in front of a large stone building?) I did get that one but suspect under current conditions it will take a while to get to me!

Hope this finds you and yours well!

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

All okay here thanks. Currently on Covid-furlough and likely to be until end of May at least - still, the weather's been outstanding and I've caught up on some domestic jobs. After talking about it for more years than I care to remember, I may even get my book into publishable state while I have some time to devote to it!

I don't recall seeing the 5th Seaforth photo. Perhaps you'd ping me a scan as and when it arrives.

I hope all's well with you and the family.

Richard

PS - One of my Christmas presents was a copy of Tom Greenshield's 'Those Bloody Kilts' ... worth getting hold of, if you've not seen it already:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Those-Bloody-Kilts-Highland-Wolverhampton/dp/1912390264/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=those+bloody+kilts&qid=1588401151&sr=8-1

Edited 2 May , 2020 by rgalley

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I have a similar photo but not the kit to upload it. Mine was taken in the same location but captioned to the 4th and 6th Seaforths.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, o j kirby said:

Hello,

I have a similar photo but not the kit to upload it. Mine was taken in the same location but captioned to the 4th and 6th Seaforths.

The men with plain glengarry and fairly large circular badges certainly seem to be Cameron’s to me.
 

The only other possibility I think is the 5th Seaforths, who had a circular badge (enclosed) that was worn on a plain glengarry, which combination could easily be confused with the Cameron’s.  However, the 5ths badge was smaller than that of the Cameron’s and I think that is telling in this case.

 

Edited 3 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rgalley]

The men with the plain (undiced) Glengarries are Cameron Highlanders (as per the original caption). Apart from the circular 'Sans Peur' badge, the 5th Seaforth wore Glengarries diced in a pattern similar to that of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and different to the dicing pattern worn by the other Seaforth battalions. Attached photo is of the 5th Seaforth Glengarry and badge:

 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s funny but I’ve posted here saying exactly the same thing as you not that many weeks ago.  However, it’s not as straightforward as that and I’m fairly sure that I made the point that the officers (and I think possibly the battalion staff too) wore plain blue glengarries, while the men wore diced.  I’ll search it out and post the link.  Here it is: 

 

Edited 5 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rgalley]

You're quite right ... I should have been more thorough in my response. After many years of studying the uniforms of the Highland Division's units I know how complicated it can get at times!

 

Richard

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, rgalley said:

You're quite right ... I should have been more thorough in my response. After many years of studying the uniforms of the Highland Division's units I know how complicated it can get at times!

 

Richard

 

 

Indeed!

[4thGordons]

And right on cue my 5th Seaforths pic arrived -- showing a mix of diced and plain Glengarries.

 

 

Richard do you recognize the building? It has some fairly distinctive stonework (3 small blocks next to one large) but can't off the top of my head think of buildings of stone like this in Bedford?

Chris

[rgalley]

Thank for sharing the image, Chris. I do remember it now I see it. I took a good look when it was advertised for sale and concluded that it was not taken in Bedford. The building material and architecture is more redolent of Scotland - maybe a drill hall? Thurso? Wick? Caithness? Dornoch? Definitely not Golspie. A bit more detective work needed.

Richard

Edited 17 May , 2020 by rgalley