British Trench locations - Ypres

[Histoire]

Hello

 

I'm aware there are several searchable indexes (e.g. National Archives DVD) I don't have them though.

 

Please can anyone help with the locations of the following trenches, associated with Messines?:

 

1. Congreve Walk

2. Birch Lane

 

Hopefully I can then find them on the maps.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Gareth Davies]

Here you go:

 

 

[John Milner]

There is no mention of Birch Lane in Rat's Alley.

 

Congreve Walk is on trench map St Julien 28NW2 C 27d to 28c.

 

John

[EDWARD1]

There is a Birch Lane at 36a SE2 Q27d, 28c It runs through the centre (E-W) of the Bois de Pacaut

Edited 1 May , 2020 by EDWARD1

[Histoire]

2 hours ago, EDWARD1 said:

There is a Birch Lane at 36a SE2 Q27d, 28c It runs through the centre (E-W) of the Bois de Pacaut

 

Thanks

 

Have you got a link to or image of that please?

[mebu]

Histoire, neither of the trenches you requested appear to be in the Messines area. St  Julien and Pacaut are quite distant.

I have looked at a number of sources and find no trenches with the names given in the vicinity of Messines.

 

If you could say what your source is it may help.

[Histoire]

59 minutes ago, mebu said:

Histoire, neither of the trenches you requested appear to be in the Messines area. St  Julien and Pacaut are quite distant.

I have looked at a number of sources and find no trenches with the names given in the vicinity of Messines.

 

If you could say what your source is it may help.

 15th Royal Irish Rifles, 2 August 1917, moving to YPRES area from Watou:

 

"Occupied CONGREVE WALK and BIRCH LANE trenches during day.9.30pm Relived 3 battalions of 55^th in BLACK LINE through enemy barrage. Pouring rain and ground 18” deep in mud."

 

Thanks

[Ken Lees]

1 hour ago, Histoire said:

 15th Royal Irish Rifles, 2 August 1917, moving to YPRES area from Watou:

 

"Occupied CONGREVE WALK and BIRCH LANE trenches during day.9.30pm Relived 3 battalions of 55^th in BLACK LINE through enemy barrage. Pouring rain and ground 18” deep in mud."

 

Thanks

 

The reference to 55th here is the 55th Division which attacked on 31st July near to Wieltje, so close to Congreve Walk.

[mebu]

In your original post, the stated association with Messines has been confusing. Congreve Walk is indeed the one on the map posted by Gareth, nowhere near Messines.

Birch Lane will not be anywhere near Pacaut, it is most likely one of the minor trenches around St Jean, doesn't appear on maps found. If you wish to find it you may want to look at the war diaries of the Brigade, the other battalions in the Brigade, and the attached REs. If no Joy try the diaries of the 55th Div, may be a mention there.

 

 

[Histoire]

16 hours ago, mebu said:

Histoire, neither of the trenches you requested appear to be in the Messines area. St  Julien and Pacaut are quite distant.

I have looked at a number of sources and find no trenches with the names given in the vicinity of Messines.

 

If you could say what your source is it may help.

 15th Royal Irish Rifles, 2 June 1917, YPRES area:

 

Occupied CONGREVE WALK and BIRCH LANE trenches during day.9.30pm Relived 3 battalions of 55th in BLACK LINE through enemy barrage. Pouring rain and ground 18” deep in mud.

Battallion in BLACK line, heavy shelling at 9.45pm

[Histoire]

2 hours ago, mebu said:

In your original post, the stated association with Messines has been confusing. Congreve Walk is indeed the one on the map posted by Gareth, nowhere near Messines.

Birch Lane will not be anywhere near Pacaut, it is most likely one of the minor trenches around St Jean, doesn't appear on maps found. If you wish to find it you may want to look at the war diaries of the Brigade, the other battalions in the Brigade, and the attached REs. If no Joy try the diaries of the 55th Div, may be a mention there.

 

 

Thanks mebu

 

Apologies for the confusion, but if I'd known where the trenches were I wouldn't have asked, hence request for index search!

 

Anyhow, where would one find Division and Brigade diaries please?

[Old Forge]

Currently free to download from the National Archives. Their Discovery search engine is a nightmare, but stick with it and you should get to what you're after.

[Old Forge]

Here's an image of the relevant sector with XVIII Corp's barrage map for 31st July 1917 on it. This is the sector where 55th Division attacked, with 39th Div on their left. You can see the Black Line following the western edge of Kitchener's Wood. The trench names are all the 'C' series for this sector (Caliban, Calibash, California etc etc). If Birch Trench is anything more then a local name, then it would lie northwards in the 'B' sector. Note that the map is oriented with north towards northeast. I'll post a picture of a 'clean' map of the same area in a minute.

Source: 'Passchendaele - Unseen Panoramas...' by Peter Barton (IWM)

 

[Old Forge]

Slightly cleaner map, with more normal orientation - trenches as at 9-9-16. 

Source - G H Smith Bookshop reprint of KRRC Museum copy of Trench Map 28 NW Edition 4A

[mebu]

If you go to the NA Discovery, 36 Div and it's units are in the range WO 95/2491 to 2511. At least they are free at present, normally £3.50 each. It is a matter of ploughing through and hoping you find any info you want, maybe a map or reference. RE diaries often have good data. 

[MaxD]

55 Div sometimes call it Birch Walk.  Map at 55 Div HQ diary for June 1917 shows "Birch Tr" as a southward extension of Congreve Walk which adds up with various references to it.  Just south and west of Pagoda Wood.

 

Ancestry here:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43849_2903_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43849_2903_0-00046  (image 47)

 

M 4 a above Potijze continuing off the bottom of the map in post #2

 

Max

[mebu]

So it does, well done Max.

[IRC Kevin]

Extract from one of 55 Division's maps. Birch Lane is just to the west of the Vinery and roughly square 4a 4.6.

 

[WhiteStarLine]

4 hours ago, IRC Kevin said:

Extract from one of 55 Division's maps. Birch Lane is just to the west of the Vinery

Here is a crude, manual adjustment to get a feeling for where both of these places were.  The centre of Birch Walk is 28.I.4.a.49.70 in quadrant NW2 at 50.863102, 2.912908.  The centre of Congreve Walk is Sheet 28.I.4.a.49.70 at 50.865529, 2.909649.

 

Images: National Library of Scotland, preview tMapper and post #18

[MaxD]

So pleased my input of the link to 55 Div was correct!

 

Max

Edited 3 May , 2020 by MaxD