Possibly Karl Donitz iron cross medal

[Peter Cookson]

Dear All

 

About 10 years ago I purchased an interesting medal.

It is presented in a whitish snake skin presentation box.

 

A message is written in it “ for Karl “ etc a date is shown I believe as (Nov 7th 1914)

I cannot find any second iron cross medal presented in this colour box.

 

I have tried for years to find the owner , the only person this fits with is Admiral Karl Donitz.

 

I may be wrong but the date fits if I am reading it correctly , plus the person I got this from lived in America he said he was a friend of the Souter family who are a known Naval family.

 

what I can say people have held it say it smells and looks written in 1914.

 

I am a 57 year old builder always gone to Remembrance Day events I would appreciate any advice.

 

please look at the pictures.

[RNCVR]

I likely wont be able to assist you, I dont collect KM or Nazi medals but my son in law collects KM & he has EKII

among other medals.  EK did not come in this kind of box, perhaps the orriginal recipient had this box made for his EKII.

I doubt you have Adm Doenitz EK tho, however I dont know where his decorations might be now, perhaps in a museum in Germany or USA.

Someone will come along who is much more able to assist you than I,

 

Thanks,

Bryan

 

[RNCVR]

 & I read that date as Mai 7 1914.  The first war had not started yet!

[depaor01]

I agree May. Also as per this site CLICK

The second most popular male German name in the 1910s was Karl. 

You have a very common medal that was either awarded to, or bequeathed to someone of that name which was also commonplace.. 

Dave

Edited 29 April , 2020 by depaor01

[Peter Cookson]

Many thanks to all reply’s 

[Peter Cookson]

I did go down another path like suggested above, if it is May 7th and 1914 should be 1915 then this fits to what I originally thought In that this could be from someone from the u-boat U-20 that sunk the Lusitania?

 

The Lusitania was hit May 7th 1915.

 

The sinking created outrage and quite rightly so , so could this be a deliberate disguise because it was nothing to be proud of , and that Is why a personal message was put in it.

 

i believe the Captain was Charles voetegler probably spelling is wrong but Karl is short for Charles in German , why would someone write in a presentation box when awarding a Medal .

To write in it after it was awarded would be defacing it ? That’s what I am baffled about.
 

This medal could of been awarded on the QT by a high officer in command as a hush hush Thank you ?

[charlie2]

Sorry Peter but in my opinion the note is a forgery made to add interest/value to the decoration. There are spelling mistakes, it is grammatically incorrect, the script is wrong and the date is wrong and written in the wrong order.

The „l“ in Deutschland is missing, the „s“ and the „r“ at the end of „feinster“ are missing. The date would be written 7. Mai 1914, 7.5.1914, 7.V.1914 or 1914.7.5.

Mai 7 (no fullstop) 1914, would translate as May Seven, is American.

see the contemporary writing on the attached

Charlie 

[Peter Cookson]

Thank you Charlie2

 

I can only presume that is was forged in or around 1914 ? 
but why would you make serious errors if you were forging something surely you would be precise to make maximum profit ?

it as been looked at and concluded that the box and writing in it Is of that time period.

 

 But I do take onboard what you say and thank you.

 

 

 

 

[charlie2]

 

39 minutes ago, Peter Cookson said:

Thank you Charlie2

 

I can only presume that is was forged in or around 1914 ? 
but why would you make serious errors if you were forging something surely you would be precise to make maximum profit ?

it as been looked at and concluded that the box and writing in it Is of that time period.

 

 But I do take onboard what you say and thank you.

 

 

 

 

The forger was probably someone with a little knowledge of German and was hoping to fool someone with even less. There are obviously differences in handwriting but I would expect something written during the war to look something more like the attached, which reads „Deutschlands feinster Stunde, Mai 7 1914“ I would date the writing much later, just my opinion of course.

Charlie

[AOK4]

I agree completely with charlie2.

 

Jan

[Peter Cookson]

Thank you

 

again I am on board with your comments but i am still baffled with the white box? That medal as most certainly been in that box since 1914.

[michaeldr]

As a postscript,

may I add here that in 1914, Leutnant zur See Dönitz was on the Breslau,

though by the time he received his decoration, that ship was serving under the Ottoman navy's ensign and known as the Midilli.

Dönitz is seen here in the foreground sitting cross-legged on the left

[Peter Cookson]

Thanks for the information it is very interesting.

[Peter Cookson]

Hi michaeldr

 

i am not as well up on this subject as yourself can I ask in your opinion do you agree it is probably a forgery (ie) dates are out and spelling wrong ?

 

but who’s to say it was not written by someone dyslexic? I am in a mild form that is why I look at all probabilities.

[michaeldr]

Peter,

 

I have to agree with Charlie; the date looks wrong

eg this is how the Kaiser signed & dated something at that time - day/month/year

 

 

[Peter Cookson]

👍

[Peter Cookson]

One strong analysis I had been advised on is when writing on a small area that is meant to be clearly read it will often cause changes especially on something that is very absorbent ( cloth) and I did agree because I have tried it with a quil type ink pen .
 

To write on a cloth type material is very difficult.

[scottmarchand]

More often than not at this time labels on cloth were not done with ink and nib but with a laundry pencil, indelible pencil or later called a copy pencil. It was a pencil infused with a permanent dye used specifically for writing in fabrics. Often giving a black or purple hue once set. https://cwpencils.com/blogs/news/a-moment-in-pencil-history-indelible-pencils

 

that case is not an official case but a privately acquired one. EK II’s came in envelopes.

 

i agree with the above comments that the writing is ‘done up’ for whatever reason. Hardly seems worth the effort for a common medal. Maybe family legend by a Later owner or something