Sapper Will Posted 26 April , 2020 Share Posted 26 April , 2020 I'm putting together an equipment display for a Canadian artilleryman in the 1915-16 time frame, featuring a mixture of Canadian and British items. Not having access to books at the moment, I've had trouble finding out online exactly how a mounted soldier, especially an artilleryman's, kit differed from a foot soldier's. Members on this forum have provided period listings of soldiers' kits, but these only go so far. One of the hardest bits to figure out has been the mess tins used. I've seen advertised a set of reproduction round mess tins that were supposedly issued to Australian and other Commonwealth troops. Did mounted men always have these round tins or did they carry the d-shaped tins? And how were the round tins carried? In a special webbing cover? And on the saddle? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 26 April , 2020 Share Posted 26 April , 2020 Round messtins had a dedicated cloth cover with leather strap. For mounted infantry and cavalry they were normally carried strapped to the rifle bucket. Officers in general usually used round mess tins. These were often private purchase in aluminium from outfitter companies like Mappin & Webb Field artillery units would be expected to be using the round messtin as all of the personnel are nominally mounted, but I am unsure whether this was an absolute or whether some also used the D-mess tins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 26 April , 2020 Share Posted 26 April , 2020 (edited) In the vast majority of cases mounted duty men were equipped as described above, regardless of arm of service. See images, one of which courtesy of Australian War Memorial. In ANZAC units (LH) the mess tin was often secured on the opposite side of the saddle. Edited 26 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Will Posted 26 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2020 Excellent answers. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ypres1915 Posted 26 April , 2020 Share Posted 26 April , 2020 Canadian's also strapped this tin around the P03 Canteen. Here is a photo from a C&T auction catalogue (2018) showing how it was worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Will Posted 27 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2020 7 hours ago, Ypres1915 said: Canadian's also strapped this tin around the P03 Canteen. Here is a photo from a C&T auction catalogue (2018) showing how it was worn. Fantastic detail! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 27 April , 2020 Share Posted 27 April , 2020 Certainly not definitive, the attached photo IWM Q2036 shows RHA gunners dragging a captured c96 to a position. In the foreground there is a greatcoat with 2 D-shape mess tins. These would appear to belong to the RHA personnel, implying the use of both types of mess tin by artillery. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2020 Share Posted 27 April , 2020 (edited) Lord Strathcona’s Horse and Fort Garry Horse showing two methods. It’s notable that being strapped to the canteen is ideal when operating dismounted as it’s attached to the man rather than to the saddle as in the other cases. Edited 27 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 27 April , 2020 Share Posted 27 April , 2020 According to the late Joe Sweeneys extensive research there is no official documentation that supports the issue of a mess tin cover for the British Army mounted services mess tin. This was not the case for Australian MS mess tins which did have an officially issued cover. It is not clear if the CEF had an issued mess tin cover MS or followed the British and did not issue them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2020 Share Posted 27 April , 2020 3 hours ago, mark holden said: According to the late Joe Sweeneys extensive research there is no official documentation that supports the issue of a mess tin cover for the British Army mounted services mess tin. This was not the case for Australian MS mess tins which did have an officially issued cover. It is not clear if the CEF had an issued mess tin cover MS or followed the British and did not issue them. That makes sense Mark, as I’ve not been able to find a single photograph showing a cover in use, including Australians (I expect they found a better use for it!). Thank you for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 27 April , 2020 Share Posted 27 April , 2020 Frogsmile, I have copied the thread on this subject below. As always credit due to Joe's encyclopedic and forensic knowledge of Army Orders and List of Changes as well as some useful pictures of Australians showing the mess tin MS with cover. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Will Posted 27 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2020 Great resources. Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 5 May , 2020 Share Posted 5 May , 2020 Picture taken in 1917 at a London station of RFA troops. (IWM and Osprey.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 5 May , 2020 Share Posted 5 May , 2020 Any idea of the IWM reference number ? It would be interesting to look at the IWM caption and data. The mostly obscured soldier on the right rear background, with a rifle over his shoulder has the D type mess tin and is using a web equipment P08 back pack, while the two soldiers in the foreground have the 5-pocket bandolier equipment version of the P1903 leather equipment, however whilst the soldier on the left appears to have the P1903 haversack the soldier on the right foreground appears to have the WE P08 haversack. As expected for the date of the photo they are carrying both the PH gas helmet and the SBR gas mask. Another interesting feature is the variations in boots and that they are wearing their spurs for the rail journey. All up a great photo. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 (edited) Hello Ross. No IWM Ref. No. in the book-Men at Arms 402 The British Army in World War I (2)The Western Front 1916-18 by Mike Chappell -page 47. Your description is about the same as given for the picture. They are called leave men of the RFA in the book, so may not have been of one unit. Regards, Paul. Edited 6 May , 2020 by Wardog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Will Posted 8 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2020 On 05/05/2020 at 13:39, Wardog said: Picture taken in 1917 at a London station of RFA troops. (IWM and Osprey.) Their tins are hanging lower off the water bottles than seen in the earlier images. And I'm surprised to see dirty footwear on leave men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 9 May , 2020 Share Posted 9 May , 2020 Natural for the mess tins to slide down I should think- they are only strapped around the waterbottle- there is nothing to hold them up if the strap is loose apart from the lower strap of the waterbottle cradle. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 9 May , 2020 Share Posted 9 May , 2020 12 hours ago, Sapper Will said: Their tins are hanging lower off the water bottles than seen in the earlier images. And I'm surprised to see dirty footwear on leave men. 12 hours ago, Sapper Will said: Their tins are hanging lower off the water bottles than seen in the earlier images. And I'm surprised to see dirty footwear on leave men. Not really a surprise men went on leave from all parts of the line and if I recall travel time was included in your leave entitlement so haste was of the essence to get to the earliest leave train back to Blighty and rail heads were not the most pristine of locations given the volume of foot and vehicle traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted 30 December , 2022 Share Posted 30 December , 2022 (edited) On 27/04/2020 at 08:26, Chasemuseum said: Certainly not definitive, the attached photo IWM Q2036 shows RHA gunners dragging a captured c96 to a position. In the foreground there is a greatcoat with 2 D-shape mess tins. These would appear to belong to the RHA personnel, implying the use of both types of mess tin by artillery. Cheers Ross @Chasemuseum I wonder if you can enlighten me about round Vs D mess tins in the RGA - as I understand it, mounted had round and dismounted had D shape (as I read in a WFA article a while back) - but I don’t know if that was what _actually_ happened? what would a gunner in the RGA have been issued? 03 bandolier, 03 water bottle and leather cradle and a haversack and an SBR, not sure which mess tin though? I was looking at this photo you posted but this is the RHA and I found this photo of the RFA (I think) which shows round tins attached to the water bottle carrier, so I remain confused! thanks for any insights ed Edited 30 December , 2022 by MrEd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 30 December , 2022 Share Posted 30 December , 2022 2 hours ago, MrEd said: what would a gunner in the RGA have been issued? I simply do not know. Primary sources such as soldier's records of equipment issue or unit standing orders. I have no recollection of ever seeing either for RGA. Contemporary photos, specific to RGA not RFA and definitely identified as such, again nothing definitive springs to mind. I suspect that both were probably on issue depending on what type of gun was on issue. The 60pr on a Mark I carriage was always intended to be moved by horse draught. For the drivers of the team, the use of the round mess tin would be appropriate. The 9.2-inch howitzer was intended to be moved by either horse draught or mechanical transport. In practice these were mostly moved by mechanical transport. The 60-pr on Mk II and Mk III carriages needed mechanical transport, as did the other guns used by the RGA (ignoring the ones that were railway mounted). From a logic perspective it can be argued that it would have been more appropriate to issue most RGA units with D-mess tins. The relationship between the Army and logic is thin, and it may well have been the practice to issue all personnel in the Corps with the round tin. The D-tin had evolved from various patterns of D-tins in use since the Napoleonic wars. It was a mark of the British soldier and considered as particularly suitable to carry fresh rations that had been issued to the soldier. When you compare it to many of the mess tins used by other nations it has the basic common feature that it can hold large fresh food objects, like part of a loaf of bread, a chunk of meat or a chunk of cheese. The WW2 messtin was an entirely different shape but still retained the ability to house and protect big chunks of food. The round mess tin for mounted troops by comparison, can be tied down on the horse in a more satisfactory manner so that it will not bounce about when the horse is trotting. It has a better chance of surviving a man falling off the horse and onto the tin. It is also probably less likely to severely injure the man when he falls onto it. This of course is the big problem with horses and the army, its very easy as a civilian to be injured or killed when you fall off a horse. Then wrap your body in field equipment, carry a bayonet and a rifle and the risk of injury goes up by an order of magnitude. Next be a driver riding a horse that is in a team in front of a limber and field gun and surviving a fall becomes a challenge. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 30 December , 2022 Share Posted 30 December , 2022 I should have added a comment on the RFA attaching their mess tins to the water bottle. This makes a lot of sense. Cavalry and mounted infantry will always be near their horses, so strapping the mess tin to the saddle kit makes a lot of sense. For RFA, the drivers will also always be near their horses so the same applies. The gunners are different, once the guns deploy, the team for the gun limber withdraws from the gun line, so the gunners are likely to be separated from their mess tins for many hours or even days. They need to carry them on the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted 31 December , 2022 Share Posted 31 December , 2022 Thank you Ross, that’s some very interesting points - I have been searching for ages for photos that are definitely RGA where such serial can be seen but so far have a drawn a blank. I was of the opinion that a gunner in the RGA would have a D shaped tin but I don’t definitively know. Just curious is all and that photo I came across got me searching the forum for answer, hence finding and resurrecting this thread. thanks for your replies, they entirely make sense to me ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuartmorgan Posted 27 April , 2023 Share Posted 27 April , 2023 I've just listed this for sale as extremely rare to find the contents complete. With the storage tins on each side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 27 April , 2023 Share Posted 27 April , 2023 Thats a British officer's private purchase mess tin set. Very unlikely that an Indian stretcher bearer would be using this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuartmorgan Posted 27 April , 2023 Share Posted 27 April , 2023 5 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said: Thats a British officer's private purchase mess tin set. Very unlikely that an Indian stretcher bearer would be using this. I thought we were on about a mounted artilleryman no a stretcher bearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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