17 KINGS LIVERPOOL REGT: SERVICE LOOK UP OFFER

[Promenade]

During my long WW1-related association with the Museum of Liverpool I was able to purchase (from a private individual) a rare copy of a potted service history of the officers and men who served with the 17th Bn Kings Liverpool Regt (1st Pals). Most of the officers and men are referenced and it basically contains a summary of their service (date abroad/dates wounded etc) and includes both men who served and those who were killed - no personal information is included. This extensive document is sitting on my shelf doing nothing so I thought I would offer lookups for a limited period.

 

Please note that I do not have similar information for 18-21 KLR .

 

Maximum of 3 per enquiry please

 

Remember when asking for information a little bit of context around your interest goes a long way!

 

A typical example

Appointed unpaid L/Cpl from 20/3/16, paid L/Cpl 12/7/16. On leave in UK 14-23 December 1916. Cpl Paid 15/4/17, paid Sgt 15/8/17. Attended Signal Course Dunstable 23/12/17. To 98 Field Ambulance 23/3/18 - 53 CCS 24/3/18 - 1 Australian General Hospital 27/3/18 - 14 CD 29/3/18 suffering with abrasions on his feet. Severely reprimanded for a) drunkeness b) disturbance and c) absence 12/4/18. To UK with Bn 30/6/18 and later served in Russia.

 

Regards

 

Promenade

Edited 25 April , 2020 by Promenade

[GraemeClarke]

Hi Promenade,

 

many thanks for the generous offer.

 

I have a man on the Walsall RoH

 

Ernest POOLE, 23145

"C" Company, 17KLR.

died of wounds Thursday 2 May 1918.

 

Be grateful for any info on this man,

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

 

 

 

 

[Promenade]

Graeme,

 

As you are probably aware the papers for Pte Poole are available on Ancestry/FMP. On comparing the two there is no additional information in my ledger that is not already available. These are my rough notes from his papers.

 

Born Walton, Liverpool. Son of Mary Jane Poole of 7 Fleming St, Ellesmere Port, later of Queen St Tavern, Queen St, Walsall and later still (1920) of 34 Highbury Rd, Whittington Barracks Lichfield. As of November 1920 his siblings were Alice Kate Poole of Whitehall Rd, Walsall, Arthur Poole and Ellen Poole both of 87 Queen St, Walsall. Enlisted Liverpool 9/11/14 and posted to 20 KLR. Aged 26 years 4 months at enlistment, occupation cement runner, height 5' 5", weight 170lbs, complexion fresh, hair brown, hair dark brown, religion CofE. Appointed unpaid L/Cpl 19/3/15. Appointed paid L/Cpl 19/4/15. Promoted Cpl 1/7/15. Reverted to Pte at own request 10/9/15. To France 7/11/15. Posted to C Company 17 KLR 7/2/18. Wounded in action 29/4/18 (sw - fractured legs and r arm) and admitted to 1/1 West Riding Field Ambulance. Admitted 13 Casualty Clearing Station 30/4/18. Died of wounds 2/5/18.

 

Extracted from 17 KLR War Diary:-

Voormezeele Sector 27/4/18
At 8.30pm the Battalion moved to the line in relief of No 4 Battalion and relief completed about 1am on 28th.

Voormezeele Sector 28/4/18
At about 1pm a Company of the Composite Battalion gave way on the left of our line and the Boshe penetrated from the Canal Bank on the left of the Battalion front, which position he maintained after 5 hours fighting. The reserve Company was ordered to the attack at 7.45pm and restore the position but the enemy laid down a barrage at 7.43pm and the counter attack was unable to proceed. The enemy bombardment lasted until 10.30pm after which a defensive flank was organised.

Voormezeele Defences 29/4/18
At 3.30am a heavy enemy bombardment opened , followed later by an enemy attack (at 9am). The lines were forced back to GHQ1 where the Battalion reorganised and held on to the position. The enemy got through on both flanks practically surrounding two of the Battalion Companies. 'A Company was actually surrounded and after severe fighting was captured.

Voormezeele Defences 30/4/18
The Battalion still holding GHQ1 line. At various times during the day small parties of the enemy crept forward with machine guns and were engaged by Lewis Guns and rifle fire. Also concentrations of enemy were dispersed by artillery shoots directed from Battalion HQ.
Total casualties during operations 27-30/4/18
2nd Lt T Harrop killed 28/4/18, Captain RH Bloore killed 28/4/18, Lt H Meyer wounded 29/4/18, 2nd Lt AH Ellis missing 29/4/18, Lt ES Ashcroft wounded and missing 1/5/18, 17 other ranks killed in action, 80 other ranks wounded, 1 other rank gassed, 2 other ranks wounded and missing, 177 other ranks missing.

The Regimental History of the Liverpool Regt by Everard Wyrall paints a bigger picture of the action-

THE BATTLE OF THE SCHERPENBERG, 29TH APRIL
    We left the 17th, 18th and 19th Battalions of the King's Regiment back in their camps on the night of the 26th of April. On the morning of the 27th the. G.O.C., 21st Division, visited Headquarters, 89th Brigade, and gave verbal instructions for the relief of the 39th Composite Brigade, then in the line about Voormezeele. During the afternoon the C.O.s and Os.C., Companies,. Reconnoitred the line and at night battalions moved up to relieve the 39th Composite Brigade.
The relief was completed early on the morning of the 28th.
The 18th King's went into the line on the right and the 19th on the left. The 18th took over a line running roughly from Elzenwalle to Ridge Wood: this line was between Voormezeele and Dickebusch Lake. The 19th King's, on the left of the 18th, were apparently between Voormezeele and Kruisstraathoek. The 17th Battalion, as far as can be gathered from the diary of Brigade Headquarters, went into the line Convent Lane to Voormezeele defences, i.e. on the left of the 19th Battalion. On the left of the 17th other troops held the line from Convent Lane to Lock 8, Ypres-Comines Canal.
During the 28th local fighting took place in the neighbourhood of Voormezeele. At about 1 p.m. the troops on the left of the 89th Brigade front, i.e. from Convent Lane to Lock 8, were violently attacked and the enemy penetrated the line. For five hours there was a desperate struggle between the enemy and the left of the 17th King's, and the C.O. of the latter ordered his reserve company to make a counter‑attack at 7.45 p.m. to restore the situation. But ten minutes before the attack was due, the enemy put down a very heavy barrage and the counter-attack was unable to proceed. This bombardment lasted until 10.30 p.m. and, all hope of making the counter‑attack having been abandoned, the 17th King's formed a defensive flank on their left.
Neither the 18th nor 19th King's were attacked during the 28th, and both battalions were able to turn their attention to the improvement of the defences.
Just after 3 a.m. on the 29th a bombardment of exceptional intensity and violence was opened by the enemy, and two hours later, a series of strong attacks were launched against the French and British positions from west of Dranoutre to Voormezeele.
The narrative of the 17th King's of this attack is brief: their line was forced back to "G.H.Q.1" where "I reorganised and held on to the position. The enemy got through on both flanks, practically surrounding two of my companies. ‘A’ Company was actually surrounded and captured, after severe fighting." (Battalion Diary, 17th King's Regiment).
The 19th King's tell the story of the enemy's violent attack in the following narrative: "At 3 a.m. the enemy opened up a very heavy bombardment of high‑explosive and gas shells on our covering artillery and at 6 a.m. launched a powerful attack, smothering our outpost line, but failing to pierce the battalion front, being repulsed with heavy loss. At 8 a.m. the enemy again attacked but was repulsed. Many casualties were caused to him during the day, as numbers of the enemy were picked off as they endeavoured to get back to their own lines. Our casualties were: Captain E. B. Hough missing (subsequently reported killed 29/4/28), Second/Lieut. W. Munro killed, twelve other ranks killed, twenty‑eight wounded, thirteen other ranks missing."
The 18th King's also refer to the extreme violence of the enemy's artillery fire, his guns bombarding the whole battle front from the front‑line trenches to a depth of over a mile. All telephone wires were cut but "stout‑hearted runners from the companies kept Battalion Headquarters in touch with the situation."
Yet despite the savage hail of shell to which they had been subjected, when the enemy advanced the King's men gave him a warm reception. So warm, indeed, that only in one spot did he manage to obtain a footing in the line, but even here his triumph was short lived, as the battalion narrative shows:- "This (the one spot) was on No. Company's frontage, near Ridge Wood, where a party of about twenty Boche occupied one of our posts. Company Sergt.‑Major Sutton of No. 1 Company, with magnificent gallantry, at once rushed upon them and, single‑handed, bombed them from our line, killing and wounding several, and putting the remainder to flight."
Lewis‑gun and rifle fire eventually forced the enemy to abandon his attempt to capture the trenches of the 18th King's. But throughout the day shell‑fire was heavy. When darkness had fallen parties of Pioneers and Royal Engineers came up and worked on the damaged trenches and wire.
On the 30th the situation is described as "quiet." Only in front of the 17th Battalion small parties of the enemy at various times during the day crept forward with machine‑guns, but were immediately engaged by Lewis‑gun and rifle‑fire, and their attempts were frustrated. (The 17th King's record their casualties during the operations 27th-30th April as 17 other ranks killed, 80 wounded, 177 missing. In officers their losses were Capt. R. H. Bloore, Second‑Lieut. T. Harrop killed, Lieut. H. Meyer wounded, Second‑Lieut. A. H. Ellis missing, Lieut. E. S. Ashcroft wounded and missing, but he was afterwards reported as having died of wounds in German hands, 12/5 /18. The 18th Battalion, between the 27th of April and the 2nd of May (inclusive) had 1 officer (Second‑Lieut. R. W. Sparks) and 23 other ranks killed, and 71 wounded).

 

Promenade

Edited 25 April , 2020 by Promenade

[Bob Davies]

Hi Promenade, thank you for your generous offer, this makes great reading. Best wishes, Bob.

[GraemeClarke]

Morning Promenade,

 

Many thanks for all the extra information.

 

Interesting that the notes state that he was born in Walton. All the info I have, record, census etc. note it was Walsall, being baptised

in Walsall. Wonder where that info came from.

 

Thanks again, I did not have the regimental history and some of the dates.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

[Promenade]

Graeme,

 

The Walton bit comes from his enlistment paperwork.

 

Recruitment for the Liverpool Pals had exceeded all expectation and the recruitment process was at times overwhelmed. The recruitment officers were used to Scouse accents and if Ernest had turned up and said Walsall in a Midlands accent could this have been translated to what they knew and were used to hearing i.e. Walton in Liverpool?

 

Soldiers died in the Great War also lists his place of birth as Walton as this would have originated from his papers. A check of the 1911 Census shows his place of birth as Walsall.

 

Promenade

 

 

 

[thetrenchrat22]

hi Promenade, 

 

Lt Col C N Watson DSO and Bar

 

he unveiled the Great War Memorial inside my village church 

 

Alan

[Promenade]

Alan,

 

Campbell Newell Watson was the head of the firm of Messrs HA Watson and Company, Liverpool, metal brokers. (Liverpool Courier 1/9/17)

 

The following is from the 17 KLR ledger:-

 

Attd to 17 KLR from 20 KLR 15/10/17 and assumed temp command. On leave to the UK 6-20/12/17 and rejoined Battalion 23/12/17. Mentioned in despatches of 7/11/17 (gazetted 14/12/17). To be acting Lieutenant-Col while commanding a Battalion 30/10/17. Wounded in action 20/4/18.

 

Promenade

[GraemeClarke]

Morning,

 

Thanks again Promenade,

 

Graeme

[clive_hughes]

Hello Promenade,

Regarding your kind offer, can I run a couple of Anglesey casualties of the 17th "Pals" past you please? - 

 

Parry, Hugh 15537

 

Roberts, Rhys (Rees)  15563

 

Thanks,

Clive

[Promenade]

Hello Clive,

 

Roberts, Rhys (Rees)  15563

 

PM Sent

------------------------------------------------------

 

Parry, Hugh 15537

 

Admitted 98 Field Ambulance 5/2/16 (sw - compound fracture leg and injuries to face). Admitted 5 Casualty Clearing Station where he died the same day. (17 KLR Casualty Ledger)

 

Extracted from 17 KLR War Diary

Friday 4/2/16
Maricourt subsector A4
3:40am - Situation normal, wind S
3:45am - some shelling of Maricourt Village by 77mm guns, wind S
6pm - Some 300 shells, mostly 77mm, some 4.2 and 5.9 fell in Maricourt Ave and Maricourt Village between 6pm and 6:30pm. 1 Officer (Lt HG Wainwright) and 5 other ranks wounded.

 

Regards

 

Promenade

[clive_hughes]

Promenade,

I'm most grateful for your PM and the entry above, thank you for taking the trouble to share this information, it's appreciated.

 

kind regards

Clive

[thetrenchrat22]

Thank you for information 

 

Alan

[LiverpoolLou]

Hello Joe,

Please could you see if there is anything relating to 53479 Pte.Walter Standing.

 

Regards,

Bill

[Promenade]

Bill,

 

He is not listed in the Ledger. This normally means that the man transferred to the 17th Bn for service in Russia only - the Ledger only records service on the Western Front. His date of discharge [9/12/19] also suggests service in Russia. As you are probably aware the medal rolls record that Walter transferred from 2/8 KLR to the 17th.

 

The following extracts from the Regimental History form a brief, if inadequate story of the 17th in North Russia.

 

The 17th and 19th King's billeted in Buysscheure, and the 18th at Le Paradis. They were scarcely settled in their new quarters when they were informed of the impending reorganisation. The three battalions (like their Division) were to be reduced to training cadre and the surplus officers and men sent to the Base. The cadres of the three battalions were to assist in training American troops. . . .  Thence, on the 16th [May 1918], the 17th King's were moved to Meneslies to be affiliated to the 1/137th American Regiment . . .  . The 17th King's Training Cadre was transferred to the 66th Division on the 19th of June, to the 25th Division on the 30th of June, and then returned to England with the division to be reformed But the battalion did not again return to France, for in October, the 17th King's left Glasgow, as part of the 236th Infantry Brigade, for the North Russian Expeditionary Force, of which more later. . . .

 

EARLY in the spring of 1918, when the fate of Russia was still in the melting pot, and the prospects of an allied victory in the West were so remote that no one contemplated its accomplishment before 1919 at the earliest, the danger of Germany securing relief from the blockade by exploiting the natural resources of Russia was a very real one. Intervention was possible at two points, the northern coast of Russia in Europe, and Eastern Siberia. Great Britain had particular interest in any expedition to Archangel and Murmansk, for these reasons: Firstly, because any such expedition would be very largely dependent upon naval support, secondly because there was an enormous quantity of British stores already at Archangel, and thirdly because of the danger of Germany establishing a submarine base at Murmansk.

It is not expedient in such a personal story as a regimental history to take up space in explaining the extremely complicated political situation into the midst of which the British troops were flung. During 1918 and 1919 we find fighting in this area British, American, French, Italian and Serbian troops, and there were White Russians, Red Russians, Karelians, Germans, White Finns and Red Finns, and the front itself was in many places undefinable. It will be sufficient to tell shortly the story of how the King's men did their duty under the most trying conditions and uncertain circumstances.

The 1st of October found the 17th King's in Mytchett Camp at Aldershot, under the command of Lieut.‑Colonel J. P. Pitts. On the 5th they entrained for Glasgow, and on the 11th they commenced their voyage on H.M.T. "Keemun," escorted by two destroyers.

On the 17th they arrived at Murmansk, where they joined the "Syren" portion of the North Russia Expeditionary Force. At Murmansk the King's were transferred to H.M.T's. "Goentoer" and "Asturian," in which they proceeded to Archangel.

On November 4th the 17th King's, with the exception of "B" Company (Captain R. G. Smerdon and 190 other ranks) who were left on duty at the machine‑gun school at Archangel, found themselves in barracks at "Economia." On the 14th "C" Company, consisting of two officers and 200 other ranks, was detached for duty with the Dvina River Force and left by rail for Berezniki. On the 21st "D" Company, two officers and 160 other ranks, proceeded by train to join the Vologda Force for temporary attachment to the Seletskoe detachment. It will be seen that the battalion was already split up and, as the companies were continually moving about on their own, it is impossible to give any connected story of their adventures. That their life was not uneventful, even when out of the line, is evidenced by the following entry in the war diary: "December 12th. This company received instructions from G.H.Q. to place under arrest the 1st Company Archangel Regiment, which had refused to proceed to the front."

On December 5th and 6th "D" Company carried out an operation to forestall a Bolshevic attack on Tarassova.

The company, under the command of Capt. E. A. Dickson, M.C., and consisting of two officers, seventy‑six other ranks, and thirty partisans, made a wide detour of sixteen versts through virgin forest without tracks, during the night, and arrived at 6.30 a.m. about four hundred yards behind the enemy's position. A blockhouse was captured, and the enemy lost seven killed and four prisoners. A little later eighteen limbers, three cookers, twenty‑two horses and two machine‑guns were captured, and more prisoners taken. Complete success was not, however, obtained because the flanking attacks of the partisans failed to materialise, and because all Lewis‑guns were out of action owing to snow getting into the working parts. The casualties incurred were: one officer (Second‑Lieut. A. Cousins, M.M.) wounded, six other ranks killed, four wounded and one missing.

On February 7th "B" Company took part, in co‑operation with a French "Coureurs des Bois" Company, in an attack upon Avda. The operation was not successful; Second‑Lieut. E. A. Stephenson was wounded and missing, whilst one other rank was killed and four wounded. Two days later the enemy captured the right blockhouse of this company, and killed the entire garrison, with the exception of one man, who was apparently taken prisoner.

The last action in which the King's appear to have taken part was in May, when "C" Company, on duty with the Dvina River Force, was engaged in the defence of Malaya‑Bereznik against strong enemy attacks. The company captured forty‑two of the enemy, and lost one other rank killed and four wounded. About the middle of June parties of King's men started going home to be demobilised, and the battalion gradually disintegrated, until the final cadre left for home at the beginning of September.

During their period of service in North Russia the following bonours and awards were given to the 17th King's:─

 

The Order of St. Stanislav, Second Class:

Capt. R. G. Smerdon, M.C.

The Order of St. Stanislav, Second Class, with Swords:

Capt. E. A. Dickson, M.C.; Capt. J. Hodgson.

The Order of St. Anne, Second Class, with Swords:

Major G. H. Wilmer, D.S.O., M.C.

The Order of St. Anne, Third Class, with Swords and Ribbon:

Lieut. J. A. Fisher; Lieut. F. R. Milligan.

Military Medal (immediate award for gallantry):

Corporal Hearnshaw.

Military Cross:

Second‑Lieut. L. N. Worgan; Second‑Lieut. S. G. Dudley.

 

In addition, the St. George's Cross of the Fourth Class was awarded to seven other ranks; the Military Medal to nine other ranks; and the Meritorious Service Medal to five other ranks.

[LiverpoolLou]

Cheers Joe. You're a gent.

 

Bill

[Promenade]

This offer is now closed.

 

Promenade

[shaun42]

Hi

I haven’t been on this site for years and I am now trying to find out as much info about Harold Clementson who from the paper I have apparently served in the 17th Kings Liverpool Regiment. Please forgive me if this now out of date or you are no longer looking up soldiers.

attached the record I have.

many Thanks 

Shaun

 

 

 

Edited 18 June , 2020 by shaun42

[George Rayner]

Good morning

A quick scan on Ancestry shows this record and his Pension card which adds nothing extra.

Appears from what you already have that he

joined in August 1914

BEF 1915

RFC 1916

RAF 1918

Deemed discharged 1920.

Also seems that he spent some time in hospital between 1916/18 but I cannot find anything to help with that.

 

George

[Promenade]

Hello,

 

You may have seen that I posted that the offer is now closed. This is because I keep a lot of my records (especially those I do not use) in a lockup some miles away - lockdown has meant a de-cluttering of the house. A I'm afraid that the 17 KLR records have been returned to storage and no longer available for consultation.

 

I will ask the Mods to lock this thread.