Doppelhöhe 60 vs. Hill 62

[Bert Heyvaert]

Dear pals,

I am looking into some place names in Ypres Saliënt. There is one in particular I am a bit puzzled about: Hill 62, the height just South of the Menin Road, in the sanctuary wood area. The Germans called this area 'Doppelhöhe 60', which means 'double-hill 60'. When one looks at the trench map, indeed, there are two hills of approximatly 60 meters in altitude, on both sides of observatory ridge. Now I was just wondering but... maybe the name 'Hill 62' did not mean a hill with an altitude of 62 meters. Maybe it was intended to be read as Hill 60-2: Two hills of approximatly 60 meters. And so the area we call hill 62 does not comprise just one hill, but two hills...

Any thoughts?

regards,

Bert.

p.s. This does not have anything to do with Mount Sorel, which is more South.

[Aurel Sercu]

p.s. This does not have anything to do with Mount Sorel, which is more South.

Bert,

I must say your PS is a surprise, for this may be what it is all about : the confusion between Hill 62 and Mount Sorrel. There has always been confusion, and there even was during the war !

On the high point known as Hill 62 is the Canadian Memorial. Many sources confuse Hill 62 (it was alqo known as Tor Top) with Mount Sorrel. Making it sound as if these two are the same

Mount Sorrel indeed is south of Observatory Ridge, and is some 900 meters south southwest of the Canadian Memorial. On my IGN map it is some 200 meters from the farm Kemphof, and is marked 60 meters above sea level. (The height of the Canadian Memorial itself is marked 62,5 meters.)

Colloquially many people refer to the Canadian Memorial as to Mount Sorrel, but believe me : it is not. Even though, if I remember correctly, the name Mount sorrel is on the Memorial !

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Bert,

Rereading your initial posting I realize that I have not answered your question, maybe even made it more confounding.

So this is a correction. Hill 62 (Canadian Monument) indeed is a double top. On a modern IGN map the 62,5 meter height line almost looks like a figure 8, with the Canadian Monument in the top half of the 8.

But as I probably will be seeing you tomorrow before noon in the Ypres Documentation Centre then we can talk about it ?

Aurel

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi Aurel,

My confusion was mostly based on only looking at German trench-maps. They give the HILL 62-area (Doppelhöhe 60 for them) as two hills of 60 meters altitude. Now I looked at some British ones as well in the meanwhile, and apparently they measured the most Northern of the two hills, Tor Top, as 62 meters, as you said. But I am still not sure if 'HILL 62' meant to the British: Tor Top (the most Northern of the two hills on both sides of observatory ridge) or Tor Top AND it's Southern neighbour (again, NOT Mount Sorrel). So, summarised: For the British, did Hill 62 refer to a specific place or to a wider area, being the hills just North and South of obervatory ridge.

Thanks for your sharing your thougts Aurel, see you tomorrow!

Bert

[bartensabien]

1 = HILL 60 (altitude lines visible on map)
2 = MOUNT SORREL (no altitude lines on the map, but the height/hill of 60meters is there)
3 = HILL 61 (altitude lines of 60 meter)
4 = HILL 62 (altitude lines of 62 meter).

On the trench maps of 1914 en 1915 there is no mount Sorrel (or height): 

[Howard]

If you use Advanced Search in TrenchMapper and enter Tor Top, it will take you to the right area. Then you can update the map list in the left panel and look at a variety of maps to compare heights and contours. There are a good number of German maps to compare with the British.

A note of cartographic caution. Heights of hills, contours etc. were not at the time very accurate, some were transferred directly from the existing Belgian 1:80,000 maps that dated from the 1800s. Levelling was initially at least, carried out using optical instruments with spirit levels from a datum and was a very slow and painstaking task, one that oddly was not carried out at the same time or by the same teams as the rest of the map. Some areas were re-surveyed during the war especially by the British, some use was made of photogrammetry to draw contours but it would be hard to tell which one was “right”.

In some theatres of the war it was much worse, notably Gallipoli where the maps themselves called attention to errors in heights and hence the naming of hills.

Howard

[brianmorris547]

The area is covered on the 1915 maps of Zillebeke and Verbrandenmolen. I managed to find a map of each which did not show the trenches from St Eloi to Zwarteleen and beyond. Confirm that Mount Sorrel at I 30 c 9 9 is not marked. The Hill 60 that we know is at I 29 c 9 1 and a 60 contour line at I 30 b 5 6. No Hill 62 in I 24 d.

Courtesy TNA WO 95/2278 (Zillebeke) and 2279 (Verbrandenmolen) - 85 IB of 28 Div.

The June 1916 WDs of 20 Div HQ and 59 IB of 20 Div do refer to Mount Sorrel. The Div was called upon to assist the Canadians. 

Brian

[Howard]

If you right click in TrenchMapper and choose ID Jump, you can go direct to maps using the IDs below, some without trenches. Otherwise browse British and German maps.

Id: m_001298. Edition: 6 Jul 1917. Printed 31/08/1916

Id: m_012600. Geheim. Tiled on linen backing Trenches. Printed 7/06/1916

Id: m_83_000609. Linen Edged. Annotated. Shows Doppelhöhe 60

Id: m_047783a.  Key to panorama for Hill 60 Arc for panorama. Printed Aug 1915, Shows Höhe 60

Howard