wallace2 Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 I am trying to establish if Leading Stoker James Quin, Royal Navy, K3927 was wounded during the battle and died in hospital. NA has his Service Certificate and notes "DD 5 July 1916 in RN Hospital South Queensferry from injury to left leg ." However, Naval History Net lists him as Drowning on 5 July 1916. IWM Lives lists him as "Died from wounds to leg." Any hints as to a way forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe R Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 Geoff's Search Engine has the following: 056 QUIN J K/3927(DEV.). HMS TIGER 05/07/1916 ROYAL NAVY 1426. Probably died of wounds Respectfully, Joe R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 (edited) I would place more credence on his ADM 188 ledger record, which is very specific. Naval History Net (which is not error-free) also states for TIGER at Jutland: "one officer and two ratings died of wounds on 1 June, one rating on 5th, and one on 20th." It is possible, therrefore, that QUIN was not a Jutland casualty but injured later. N.B. it says he died of "injury" not wounds. If, contrary to his record, he was drowned then his body was recovered since he had a burial. There might be something in TIGER's log which, unfortuately. is not on line. Edited 2 April , 2020 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 For a small number of the ships present at the battle, there are casualty files. HMS Tiger is one of those for which a file exists. You would need to go to Kew to view the file. Catalogue description HMS TIGER at Jutland. List of Casualties Reference: ADM 1/8457/115 Description: HMS TIGER at Jutland. List of Casualties https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4780676 There are a few instances where a man is recorded aboard one ship, but his ADM 188 service record has him aboard another. J24856 Signalman Herbert Leslie is associated with HMS Birmingham on his service record, yet is in the HMS Dublin casualty list, reference ADM 1/8458/129 In addition, Jutland casualties are recorded in ADM 104. Here is a link to what is being compiled, you will have seen forum member Penfold post on here a number of times.https://battleofjutlandcrewlists.miraheze.org/wiki/Register_of_Killed_and_Wounded I got to this via the following linkhttps://www.jutlandcrewlists.org/battle-of-jutland-resources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe R Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 In post #1 "Service Certificate and notes DD (date of death) 5 July 1016......etc." Respectfully, Joe R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 2 hours ago, wallace2 said: IWM Lives lists him as "Died from wounds to leg." Lives of the First World War is source-based. It tells you that "Died from wounds to leg" is based upon the ADM 188 service record, and also advises that his death is recorded by the CWGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 22 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: It tells you that "Died from wounds to leg" is based upon the ADM 188 service record I which case IWM is wrong because ADM 188 says 'injury' NOT 'wounds'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace2 Posted 3 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2020 Hello All, Thank you for your input. Checked again the ADM 104 sources. No entry about him being wounded in the battle. In view of no definite evidence to support the idea that he was wounded at Jutland and died in July I have to go with the fact that ADM 188 stated "DD 5 July 1916 in RN Hospital South Queensferry from injury to left leg". Many thanks. Wallace2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 3 April , 2020 Share Posted 3 April , 2020 If I understand correctly, you can download ADM 104/147 for free. It will be a series of images and no transcription. His entry for his death on 5 July 1916 ought to be recorded, and ought to explain more about his demise. There is another source that could be consulted. His death as registered in ADM 242, and transcribed in FindMyPast as "WW1 Naval Casualties", will record a classification of his demise. The transcripts of the Jutland wounded do not contain his name among those HMS Tiger crewmen, and he would appear to have exited the battle unscathed. Lives of the First World War is a source-based means by which info could be recorded. It is not a primary source. The details of his death are understood to have been derived from ADM 188, and the description used by the inputter do not accurately reflect the phrase used in ADM 188. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace2 Posted 9 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2020 Keith History Buff. Thank you for your response. I am not going to link my Man's death to Jutland until positive proof is found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 I would agree with that assertion, too. The "derived dataset" as compiled by Penfold does not indicate him being wounded at Jutland. This can be double checked by yourself or a researcher going to Kew, taking photo images of ADM 1/8457/115 and then seeing who is named on that list. Between now and then, you can download ADM 104/147, and scroll through the images of the PDF document until you reach July 1916. (Given that it starts May/June 1916 and concludes March 1917, it won't be too far from the start of the document.)https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C513634 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 Note to self: ADM 242 data is available not only via FMP, both as images and as "WW1 Naval Casualties transcription", but also via the followingAncestry UK, British Army and Navy Birth, Marriage and Death Records, 1730-1960https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60931 Archive details: ADM 242 - Admiralty: Naval Casualties, Indexes, War Grave Rolls and Statistics Book, First World War ADM 242/9 1914-1919 War graves roll: L - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 There is a Memorial Plaque to those lost on HMS Tiger in the Church at HMS DRAKE, Devonport. It lists 21 Killed and 3 Died of Wounds for Jutland. Unfortunately the photographer it in 'HMS TIGER AT BAY' by Victor Hayward (1977) who was at Jutland is not clear enough to read the names. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 There is a casualty table that appears on the following website.https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/jutland/jellicoe_dispatch_1916.htm The same table is in the following book, on page 338, and presumably the primary source of this is cited. N J M Campbell, Jutland, an Analysis of the Fighting (Conway Maritime Press, London, 1986) 978-0-85177-379-7 As you will see HMS Tiger has 2 officers and 22 ratings recorded as fatalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penfold Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 ADM 104/146 Registers of Killed and Wounded 1915 May-1916 May (Vol 2) Lists four that died of wounds for HMS Tiger. Page 236 - Graham, Walter K22555 Page 236 - Forbes, James Arthur Charles - Midshipman Page 247 - Nolan, Michael James 2875 S Page 247 - Parker, Joseph Samuel M8041 Cannot see James Quin listed. But can confirm, as stated, that his service record indicates " DD 5th Jul 1916 in Hospital South Queensferry from injury to left leg" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penfold Posted 9 April , 2020 Share Posted 9 April , 2020 Here is the link to the transcription (much work still required to be done!) https://battleofjutlandcrewlists.miraheze.org/wiki/ADM_104/146_Registers_of_killed_and_wounded_1915_May-1916_May_(Vol_2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 10 April , 2020 Share Posted 10 April , 2020 On 02/04/2020 at 19:37, Joe R said: In post #1 "Service Certificate and notes DD (date of death) 5 July 1016......etc." Respectfully, Joe R I thought DD stood for "Discharged Dead", as opposed to D invalided, D not likely, D to pension, etc. aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 10 April , 2020 Share Posted 10 April , 2020 3 hours ago, aim said: I thought DD stood for "Discharged Dead" Correct: it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 11 April , 2020 Share Posted 11 April , 2020 Well spotted on the misinterpretation of what the initials "DD" stand for, which I first encountered in Bruno Pappalardo's book on tracing Naval ancestors. I am more familiar with its usage in records of the Napoleonic Wars. I sent away for the WW2 records of a family member who died when his ship was sunk and it was still in use on his service record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 April , 2020 Share Posted 23 April , 2020 Postscript: I looked on Ancestry, and got the following: Link to image of ADM 104/123 stating 'injury to leg'https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60931/44994_adm_104_123-0195?pid=137354 His cause of death is a category 2" in ADM 242/9 so it confirms that he did not die of wounds. Images courtesy of Ancestry, and reproduced on a fair use basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace2 Posted 28 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 April , 2020 Keith History Buff, Thank you for confirming the fact that his death was not Jutland related. Thanks also for all who commented. Wallace2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 4 July , 2020 Share Posted 4 July , 2020 In addition to the lists of killed & wounded for several distinct ships within ADM 1, the killed and wounded in ADM 104, there is also a Jutland wounded file of papers at Kew, too Reference: ADM 1/8573/315 Description: Battle of Jutland. List of wounded and those who died of wounds Date: 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 9 November , 2021 Share Posted 9 November , 2021 Keith, thanks for the link to https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60931/44994_adm_104_123-0195?pid=137354 I tried to search Army and Navy Birth, Marriage and Death Records, and got nowhere. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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