Land mines

[Mick M]

I'm reading 23rd Field Company RE war diary and towards the end of 1914 there are a number of entries about laying mines. 

Entry for 28.12.14....nr Cambrain...1 section.laying mines and placing wire at Givenchy.

 

The entry implies buried anti personnel mines along side defensive wire, I didn't think mines were used until tanks were introduced. Am I reading this right?

[mancpal]

Really cant help, I thought land/anti-personnel mines didn't feature in WW1. I'll follow this thread in the hope of furthering my education.

 

Simon

[Don Regiano]

This is one of many areas in which I have no expertise.  However, as it happens, I am currently near the end of reading "Tanks and Trenches".  In the book, there is a reference in the action of 8 August 1918: "One tank was disabled near Accroche Wood by running over a land mine, the first experience in the battalion of this form of anti-tank defence."  However, as tank battalions hadn't been around that long, this does not preclude the earlier use of mines in other settings.  Also, elsewhere in the book there is a reference to a tank being damaged by running over a dud shell.  So there is room for confusion and conjecture there.

 

Of course "mines" in various incarnations pre-dated WW1 but I believe during the Great War there was more significant use of anti-personnel mines in Africa and latterly as an anti-tank device.

Edited 29 March , 2020 by Don Regiano

[Muerrisch]

Look at Bangalore torpedoes.

[AOK4]

Both sides used land mines and booby traps, although on a limited scale.

[Mick M]

Thanks all 

It would be interesting to know what form the mines as mentioned in the diary took,, there are some very interesting reports of the bridges blown during the retreat from Mons with sketches and detail of the placement of explosive and quantities etc.....

[Don Regiano]

11 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Look at Bangalore torpedoes.

 

Good point.  Tend to think of its use in more of an offensive setting but defensive also.

[Mick M]

22 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

 

Good point.  Tend to think of its use in more of an offensive setting but defensive 

I would have thought the Bangalore an offensive weapon only, the work being described is trench development and improvement only...

[Terry_Reeves]

Bangalore torpedoes were used for breaching wired defences. I suspect that those  Mick is referring were improvised charges made up of gun cotton slabs.

 

TR

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Bangalore torpedoes were used for breaching wired defences. I suspect that those  Mick is referring were improvised charges made up of gun cotton slabs.

 

TR

They were certainly using gun cotton Slabs to blow the bridges, do you know how the devices were triggered, trip wire, pressure switch, control wire manually are a couple of options...

[14276265]

The attached from the Royal Engineers might be of interest.

 

Also N. W. Aasen in a pre war catalogue had described his model A2 hand grenade as "serving equally as a land mine", and the catalogue shows example mine fields.

 

 

 

265

[michaeldr]

Liman von Sanders refers to the use of mines at Gallipoli in April 1915: see his Five Years In Turkey, p.62

“The available Turkish means of obstruction were as short as were the tools, but we did the best we could. Torpedo heads were used alongside with the regular land mines..................”

Liman does not elaborate on what he refers to as 'regular land mines'

 

and the British OH, Military Operations Gallipoli, Vol.1, p.226

“Trip wires had been laid in the water a few yards from the shore; and on the beach itself were a number of land mines.”

[14276265]

25 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Liman von Sanders refers to the use of mines at Gallipoli in April 1915: see his Five Years In Turkey, p.62

“The available Turkish means of obstruction were as short as were the tools, but we did the best we could. Torpedo heads were used alongside with the regular land mines..................”

Liman does not elaborate on what he refers to as 'regular land mines'

 

 

From a briefing note from reports from ANZAC.

 

 

265

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, 14276265 said:

The attached from the Royal Engineers might be of interest.

 

Also N. W. Aasen in a pre war catalogue had described his model A2 hand grenade as "serving equally as a land mine", and the catalogue shows example mine fields.

 

 

 

265

That makes sense as to why the use of anti personel mines is largely unknown, i suspect that they were being placed in our own wire at this early stage in the war but deemed a hazard to our own patrols and the practise stopped....thanks...

[Mick M]

Thanks very much all, your collective input has greatly enhanced my knowledge, i see this a a good find as it shows anti personnel mines were used being placed in defensive wire at this early stage in the war. I suspect they then became a hazard to our own night patrols and the practice stopped hence we don't ever read about mines (not underground of course) being used until tanks come along.

[Marilyne]

Before anyone asks: there were no provisions of international law at the time to forbid or otherwise regulate these kind of things… sorry for the purists…

 

M.

[14276265]

Nor flame throwers, nor CW agents...

 

 

265

[michaeldr]

265,

Many thanks for your 'briefing note from reports from ANZAC'

regards

Michael

[Marilyne]

13 hours ago, 14276265 said:

, nor CW agents…

 

not entirely true… part of the Hague Conventions of 1899 was the Declaration on the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases;

In this July 1899 declaration, the Contracting Powers (and those were all the major powers that went to war 15 years later) agree to abstain from the use of "projectiles" the object of which ... bla bla bla… So we're talking PROJECTILES.

Seen under this declaration, the use of gas projectors, like was used on 22 April 1915, is NOT illegal.

 

Although, looking a bit further, the same powers signed the 1907 Laws and Customs of the War on Land (Hague IV) state :

Art. 22. : The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.

Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions (that would include the one above)  it is especially forbidden - (very first point:) To employ poison or poisoned weapons and, a bit further: To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering

 

Greetings,

 

the very annoying lawyer

 

M.