JMB1943 Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 I recently came upon this photo of Scottish troops on the Western Front. Not a steel helmet in sight, so presumably well before the Somme. Each rifle has, not only the canvas action cover that I was aware of, but also a muzzle cover. I had not previously seen any textual reference to, or photo of, this item. Were they an issue item, or is it likely that this was at the order of the battalion CO? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 Nice photo. Regarding the muzzle covers - unusual - could they be improvised? There also seem to be several soldiers with Wounded stripes which suggests the photo is some time after July 1916 rather than before July 1916 - as these stripes seem be brass (not braid) this may well bounce the photo into 1917 …….. at least. The soldier in front rank has a couple of medal ribbons but I can't make them out. Puttees Short and full Kilt Aprons? Sergeant is clearly wearing flat double fishtail flashes so possibly A&SH, BW or QOCH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 Long service chevrons present as well. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 When did goatskin jerkins stop being used? Could this help narrow down a date? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 The SBR seen in the photo was in universal use from August 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 Excuse my ignorance, SBR? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthStaffsPOW Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 SBR: Small Box Respirator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 Thanks, Im not a uniform/kit person as may now be obvious. The goatskin still interests me as I’m sure they were around early in the war but thought I’d read they were removed from service due to the smell and ability to house legions of lice. The wound stripes indicate 1917 onwards though I had thought goats were breathing easier in 1916 after the war dept stopped ordering them. I hope to be educated. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 (edited) I'd put money on some "old sweat" Teuchter affinity in retaining the goatskins for so long. The bulk of the blokes wearing them have clearly been around the block and these items are a visual indication of just that. Indeed, that whole front rank has some unusually serious service crammed into it. Unlike Leather Jerkins (right of shot) these were intended as a one off personal issue and not held/issued as pool items. As for lice I am told they are motivated by the warmth of a living body and the prospect of a short journey for a regular blood meal - so when compared to the attraction of dark kilt pleats and cosy shirt seams the goat skin seems a rather less attractive option. Very true - these items do smell! Any thoughts on the muzzle covers? The more I look at them the more I see cut up cotton bandoliers. Edited 24 March , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 24 March , 2020 Share Posted 24 March , 2020 (edited) Sticking with the original muzzle cover question the Royal Armouries website (https://collections.royalarmouries.org/first-world-war/type/rac-narrative-146.html) tells us that by "1916, (the rifle) was further refined as the Mark III by eliminating redundant features, by which time fabric action covers and metal muzzle covers had been issued to limit ingress of mud and water." No mention of a fabric muzzle cover there. The more I look at the photo the more I see those cut up cotton bandoliers. A photo of the metal muzzle cover (GWF Post 59637/2011/18th Battalion) is attached. Edited 24 March , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 25 March , 2020 Share Posted 25 March , 2020 23 hours ago, TullochArd said: Nice photo. Regarding the muzzle covers - unusual - could they be improvised? There also seem to be several soldiers with Wounded stripes which suggests the photo is some time after July 1916 rather than before July 1916 - as these stripes seem be brass (not braid) this may well bounce the photo into 1917 …….. at least. The soldier in front rank has a couple of medal ribbons but I can't make them out. Puttees Short and full Kilt Aprons? Sergeant is clearly wearing flat double fishtail flashes so possibly A&SH, BW or QOCH? ……. last observation from me on this one - regarding dating the photo - do you think the soldier with the medal ribbons/front rank is wearing a number (at least three) overseas service chevrons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 25 March , 2020 Share Posted 25 March , 2020 (edited) Can't see any overseas service stripes at all (right cuff). I can however see long service/good conduct chevrons (left sleeve) as mentioned in post 3. I can't see anything on the sleeve of the man with the medal ribbons. Simon Edited 25 March , 2020 by mancpal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 26 March , 2020 Share Posted 26 March , 2020 2 Variations 1st Australian dated 1950's, 2nd British. Date wise as to when they were initially issued not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 27 March , 2020 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2020 303man, Thanks for posting those photos, the first that I have seen of official issues. I’m a little surprised that the War Office went to the trouble of designing the all-metal flap device. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 27 March , 2020 Share Posted 27 March , 2020 Metal protectors (Protector, muzzle, No.3, MkI) seem to have been introduced from August 1915. Attached excerpts of demands show a few orders, and also suggest a muzzle protector for the long rifle was available. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geluveld Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 Interesting to see the young lad, second from right on the picture, wearing P1908 equipment with no pouches (braces fastened like a revolver-rigged P1908 set) but however having a P1903 leather bandoleer instead. I enlarged the picture and see abosluteley no presence of either web pouces or any other revolver holster of ammunition pouch. Wonder why that is for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 5 hours ago, geluveld said: Interesting to see the young lad, second from right on the picture, wearing P1908 equipment with no pouches (braces fastened like a revolver-rigged P1908 set) but however having a P1903 leather bandoleer instead. I enlarged the picture and see abosluteley no presence of either web pouces or any other revolver holster of ammunition pouch. Wonder why that is for... 1903 Pattern Bandolier Equipment was never designed to carry a large pack, and the method of carrying the greatcoat on the back is pretty poor. Given his SBR bag is clearly sat on something and everyone else is in FSMO I would suggest he was probably something like a Driver wearing the 1903 equipment originally, and the practicalities of field service have made him put together a basic system of the 1908 equipment which would allow him to have the much more practical large pack on his back (plus any other 1908 pieces less the ammunition pouches) but also retain his bandolier from the 1903 equipment (which would also be worn in walking out dress, so a necessary retention). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 30 March , 2020 Share Posted 30 March , 2020 10 hours ago, geluveld said: Interesting to see the young lad, second from right on the picture, wearing P1908 equipment with no pouches (braces fastened like a revolver-rigged P1908 set) but however having a P1903 leather bandoleer instead. I enlarged the picture and see abosluteley no presence of either web pouces or any other revolver holster of ammunition pouch. Wonder why that is for... Hi He is wearing 08 equipment without the cartridge carriers, the braces which come over the shoulders and which normally fasten onto the cartridge carriers have been looped around the belt instead and secured to themselves by the large 2” twigg buckle which you hang the valise off. Not common but can be seen in a number of pictures. As Andrew states the 03 is probably because he’s a transport driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 17 June , 2020 Share Posted 17 June , 2020 (edited) On 24/03/2020 at 15:53, JMB1943 said: I recently came upon this photo of Scottish troops on the Western Front. Not a steel helmet in sight, so presumably well before the Somme. Each rifle has, not only the canvas action cover that I was aware of, but also a muzzle cover. I had not previously seen any textual reference to, or photo of, this item. Were they an issue item, or is it likely that this was at the order of the battalion CO? Regards, JMB This is a photo of a roll call of the 1st Black Watch in April, 1918, here's another one taken at the same time. WWI, 10 April 1918; Roll Call of the 1st Battalion, Black Watch (Royal Highlander Regiment) outside their billets, Lapugnoy. © IWM (Q 10878) Edited 17 June , 2020 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 18 June , 2020 Share Posted 18 June , 2020 Interesting to note that even this late in the war, the soldier second from the right in the front row is still wearing an unmodified left hand pouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 Odd to my mind that German rifles were supplied with a brass muzzle cap (the Turkish Mausers also) but the practice never extended to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 4 July , 2020 Share Posted 4 July , 2020 (edited) On 26/06/2020 at 16:05, trajan said: Odd to my mind that German rifles were supplied with a brass muzzle cap (the Turkish Mausers also) but the practice never extended to the UK. ........ post #10 and #15 ? Edited 4 July , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 July , 2020 Share Posted 4 July , 2020 On 26/06/2020 at 10:05, trajan said: Odd to my mind that German rifles were supplied with a brass muzzle cap (the Turkish Mausers also) but the practice never extended to the UK. In addition to the "flanders flap" (indicated above) MLE/CLLE rifles and before them Martinis were issued with brass muzzle covers - SEE THIS IMAGE for them in use on MLEs So it is really a practice of brass muzzle covers being retained longer elsewhere than in the UK. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 July , 2020 Share Posted 6 July , 2020 On 04/07/2020 at 14:46, TullochArd said: ........ post #10 and #15 ? Whoops! Overlooked that flimsy thing! The German and Ottoman ones were much more substantial, made of brass, fitted over the front sight. On 04/07/2020 at 17:38, 4thGordons said: In addition to the "flanders flap" (indicated above) MLE/CLLE rifles and before them Martinis were issued with brass muzzle covers - SEE THIS IMAGE for them in use on MLEs So it is really a practice of brass muzzle covers being retained longer elsewhere than in the UK. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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