March 1918

[andrew pugh]

Hi

Remembering all the men killed and injured during the German Spring Offensives of March 1918.Although they are not mentioned enough they helped turn the tide of the Great War. 

Regards

Andy

[RobertBr]

I concur and am glad to see you are using 'Offensives' in the plural. Many men on both sideswere killed, wounded and gassed (including my Grandfather) during Mars.

 

Robert

[Chris11]

Yes, agreed, this time is of particular interest to me and my own grandfather was gassed and wounded on the same day as Robert's.

 

I am sure you will be familiar with The Great War series by Indy Neidell, and I have found that quite useful in putting the different operations into the wider perspective. He certainly portrays this as a turning point and especially the resolve of the threadbare 5th Army. Episode 191 covers the week from 22nd March, available on YouTube.

 

Chris.

 

 

 

[RobertBr]

Chris

 

Your Grandfather was gassed in the same battle as mine! He was with D/281 RFA. I believe it is is very likely they were both gassed between 03:30 and 07:00 on Maundy Thursday.  Have you seen my post 28 March 1918 which provides details of the battle?

 

As walking wounded my Grandfather was rapidly sent back to England :

Hospital (Good Friday)

Bound for England. London6pm

(Easter Sunday)

Warrington Hospital 1am (Easter Monday)

 

He ended up in hospital in Roose (Barrow-in-Furness) and was then snet to Rippon Camp before returning to D battery in September.

 

 

Robert

[andrew pugh]

Hi Chris and Robert

My Great Uncle was killed on the 24/03/1918, while serving with the 24th Battalion (2nd Sportsmen) Royal Fusiliers in the RED Line near Villers au Flos in what was known as the 1st battle of Bapaume. His battalion strength was down to about 30 men by that time.It took 18 months to push the Germans back from the Somme to Bourlon Wood area, and it took only 6 days for the Germans to drive the British Army back to the old Somme battlefields at La Signy Farm.Thanks for your replies,and keep yourselves safe during these dark times.

Regards

Andy   

[Chris11]

23 hours ago, RobertBr said:

I believe it is is very likely they were both gassed between 03:30 and 07:00 on Maundy Thursday.  Have you seen my post 28 March 1918 which provides details of the battle?

Hi Robert,

Yes I am aware, and you have helped me very much to establish some facts and almost pinpoint where he was. It looks like they were gassed around the same time but your grandfather was more affected by that. John Robert Jones on the other hand, I suspect had only mild exposure and his gun was hit by a shell later in the day. He was two days on the battlefield before being found, and didn't get back to England until 6th April, via Aubengue hospital near Wimereux. I am still searching for more facts which might prove or disprove the family anecdote that the rest of his gun crew were killed. I am at a dead end on that, but I think it is most probable that it was a 109 Battery gun crew, adjacent to him (thanks to your research and maps), who all perished. 

However, I am trying to find out more info on another possibility which is that the gun crew that all perished were at a previous battle in which they took part, the Battle of Le Transloy between 1 and 18 Oct 1916. John was wounded on 14th October. I am fairly sure he was in A battery at that time also, and it is just possible that the anecdotal incident of the rest of the crew perishing came from that incident. Against it, is the fact that the picture (attached) that was part of the anecdote was said to be taken before Cambrai 1917 which obviously places the story post 1917 - however, I don't know who has actually written before Cambrai on the back of the photo, it may have been a misguided family member fitting the photo to the mistaken story. If by chance your grandfather served at Le Transloy in D battery, I'd be interested to hear any information you have on that battle.

 

[RobertBr]

Chris

 

My Grandfather Attested under the Derby Sceme and was not called up until September 1916. He was posted to D/281 in the Spring of 1917. So I have not really looked at 1916 other than the formation of the Division.

 

I just had a glance at the 281 War Diary, October 1916 is missing. 280 Brigade seem to have been in the line over an 8 week period including October 1916 and had a rough time. They also state that there was incesant rain most of the month.

 

Robert

[Chris11]

22 hours ago, RobertBr said:

I just had a glance at the 281 War Diary, October 1916 is missing.

Robert, 

Thanks for looking for me. 

I have done a search on the CWGC database of all RFA 281 brigade casualties and sorted into date order. This is imprecise in that the cataloguing of "unitshipsquadron" by CWGC is loose, but I have tried to pick up as many 281 brigade men as possible, and for this purpose it presents a decent sample of where 281 would have been at significant moments. In Oct '16 my sample shows three 281 casualties:-

1 Oct 1916  - Chambers - C Battery - buried THIEPVAL MEMORIAL (8 miles West of Le Transloy)

1 Oct 1916 - Burns         - C Battery - Buried GURADS CEMETARY, LESBOEUFS (1 miles west of Le Transloy)

11 Oct 1916 - Woods     - C Battery - Buried ETAPLES Military CEMETARY (on the coast south of Boulogne)

 

You know more about these things than me, so I'd be interested in your thoughts, but I would suggest that infers that 281 Brigade were positioned somewhere near Le Transloy during Oct 1916 but it doesn't seem to tell us much more than that. Certainly my grandfather being wounded on 14th doesn't (seem to) coincide with any fatalities, and I think I can rule out that he lost the rest of his gun crew at this time. So this very slightly reinforces the view that what he observed was an adjacent 109 Battery that lost 6 or 7 men on 28th March 1918, the day he was left for dead for two days before he was found. If so, the picture above are not the men who were lost on that day. 

What I am not sure of, and you may be able to advise, is how accurate the date on military records are to the date of injury, as opposed to the date an injury was reported or treated. I am assuming when it says 14th Oct, that that would be the actual date of the injury. Is that a fair assumption?

 

Chris.

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, Chris11 said:

I have done a search on the CWGC database of all RFA 281 brigade casualties and sorted into date order.

 

Have you tried Geoffs' Search Engine as a double check?

Search criteria

Ship or unit number, button 'contains'  281

Regiment/Corps, drop down "Royal Field Artillery"

brings up exactly 60 matches.

http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search1421.php?LMCL=dndwEV

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[Chris11]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

Have you tried Geoffs' Search Engine as a double check?

Many thanks Peter,

Yes, same results but easier to get had I known about it before.

Chris.

 

 

[RobertBr]

Chris

I note that the 56th Division were relieved by the 4th Div on 9th Oct 1916. It is quite possible that the artillery remained in place post that date. The 56th or 4th CRAs War Diary  may confirm that. My records do not cover those dates.

 

With respect to the accuracy of military records and injuries/deaths I would suggest starting a new topic for that query. The only example I have is the death of a man recorded by the CWGC as 8/12/17 where a rare entry in the War Diary stated he was KIA on 13/12/17 (and then  awarded the MM on 28/12/17).

 

Your seraches if the CWGC records are more than probably correct. However I they do depend on your search criteria. I have for instance found men of 109th Bty listed as being in 261, 281, 218 Brigades! Its very difficult to amass enough eveidence to get the CWGC to change there records. Even the fact that one man was burried in France when his supposed Brigade was in India.

 

Bob

 

 

[Chris11]

1 hour ago, RobertBr said:

Its very difficult to amass enough eveidence to get the CWGC to change there records.

Yes, I imagine.

 

Thanks for all your information and advice. I am sure this will remain a mystery, but I feel compelled to run every avenue to ground if I can, and leave as much of the story behind as I can. John Robert Jones had a fairly awful life and died in 1936, largely as a result of his wounds. He had 5 children, three of whom are still alive at 96, 94 and 89, another died at 96, and the other one was in the 1948 Olympic team. We can assume the genes were good, but the timing of his life unfortunate. 

 

Thanks again,

Chris.