scarlet tunic collar piping

[Muerrisch]

Of all the dozens, if not hundreds, of books on British infantry uniform, and of all the notes and photos I have, nothing has solved this one.

Picture this:

scarlet tunic, seven brass buttons, collar and shoulder straps in facing colour, white piping down front. With the exception of the Guards, the norm. pre c.1900 was for the BOTTOM [only] of the collar to be piped white.

By say 1910, the piping had moved to the top! This seems a military fashion rather than a change of design, and I cannot lay a finger on a date, or an order, or whatever.

Would those of us who are single regiment orientated please look at their datable photos etc and say what they think, please?

A hint: a soldier with a number implying a 1913 or 1914 recruitment with white piping AT THE BOTTOM would be interesting, whereas an old soldier with one style or the other could have had the photo taken at any time over his service.

[DrB]

LB...I cannot find a "truth" or regulation that deals with the positioning of the collar piping. The Fosten brothers in their "Cut of the Cloth" years ago in Military Modeling magazine showed both.

I recall looking at a book of colored illustrations of full dress, which I unfortunately didn't buy, that showed all of the regiments of the line.

What was surprising was the placement of piping on both the collars and cuffs. These were taken from comtemporary paintings, so I would imagine they should be considered as what the artist saw.

The impression I got was that each regiment had the piping placed wherever that mysterious word "tradition" demanded or at the whim of the CO.

Some had no piping on the cuffs, others had piping at the bottom of the collar and others had piping at the top. (And, naturally, no dates)

I believe this was a consistant finding amoungst the infantry. The piping was placed wherever.....

The only thing I can definately report was that the colored shoulder straps were not de rigour until 1914, but even then, the Fosten's state that some NCO's of some regiments wore them prior to the regulation being published.

Go figger.....

DrB

[Muerrisch]

Dr B.

Thank you, that is exactly my impression: regimental preference.

I have been privileged to examine, sketch and photograph an entire regimental collection of tunics, frocks and trousers, including a vast reserve. All labelled, and a few [only a few] dated. They include Militia, TF after 1908, SR and regulars, just about all ranks, band, drums, most orders of dress ...............

Where does it get us?

Nowhere, except this unsatisfactory "it was initially at the bottom and then at the top" in this particular regiment.

And I have spared the Pals the dreadful knowledge that non-systematic changes in the collar front occurred: square, curved, square ............

[Joe Sweeney]

LB1418,

Anything not Service Dress or KD I tend not to study.

Some of the info you desire probably does exits, but would take a long time to research.

Pattern information exits for just about everything. I did a quick look through my cryptic notes-without going into the RACD registries--which are handwritten and can be very hard to decypher.

I don't have any records that pre date 1900 which you would need to get a full idea of pattern changes.

Some of my notes state (i would have to recheck all dates except the 1912 date due really bad note taking on my part):

1905--major revision in collar design-my notes mainly reflect lining change and leather tab removal-didn't write anything about piping.

1907--skirt design changed--RACD registry has a pattern shadow.

1908--Embrodiered shoulder straps removed and replaced by plain straps of body color to a fix GM titles.

1912--Collar squared, shoulder straps in facing color, removal of certain pockets--revised specification.

This is a simplified list. As the numbers of separate patterns is far higher. To give you an idea the pattern series for Infantry of line is usually lumped together in very large single Registry entries. So each time even a small pattern change was made it affected maybe 15 different patterns under Infantry of the line, reflecting a different rank, appointment or quality of tunic--depending on pattern number also affected piping placement anywhere on the tunic. Then multiply this by each Corps and specialized formations in the Infantry having their own pattern series.

There are also pattern number that don't talk to the Tunic but to parts of the tunic and there maybe one I did not record specifically talking about changes in tunic piping.

Also, when a Pattern change was issued it also meant that unless the previuos pattern was made obsolete, and not to be used, the regimental tailors could modify the existing patterns to reflect the change leaving details of previuos patterns in place. Some of those tailors could modify a tunic to such a dgree it looks like newly made attesting to their skill. Thus causing headaches for modern researchers. Some of these Tunic s were used over decades, as issue dates stamped in them can show, and consistantly modified. Best to try to find those tunics with the sealed pattern tag still fixed. Give me a number and I can look up the info for anything after 1900.

Regiments rarely had carte blanche to make changes, unless there was some stated exceptions in Clothing Regs or permission by the DEOS or higher authority, or the language was a bit unclear, but sealed patterns had a purpse and units were usually not allowed to modify these whilly nilly. An example would be that the Clothing regulations allowed Scottish Regiments to cutback the fronts of Service Dress Jackets (until 1915 that is, but ignored by a war time army). It would not be until 1929 that the British Army finally started issuing a highland/Scottish pattern of OR's SD jacket.

Hope this is of some use,

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

Joe, thank you: very informative: I withdraw my speculation about regimental preferences!

Please, where is RACD and how could I wangle access?

[Joe Sweeney]

LB1418,

Only one place for the complete set through 1914 and that is the NA.

I have copies of all volumes from 1900 through 1929. Don't know page count but it represents two and a helf feet thick of photo copies.

I have never done anything close to a comprehensive search of Tunics/Frocks in the paper I have. So can't give you a complete picture. Other notes I have:

1870's Frocks 5 button piped at front and at cuffs.

1881 7 button frock introduced plain No facing colors.

1890's Frock facing colors to cuffs, collar,

1890's Frock Facing color to shoulder straps.

Circa 1900 Frock back to 5 button piping at front

etc. etc.

Looking up SD pattern changes is far easier than getting a handle on the pattern mess with Tunics and Frocks especially since in almost all cases "old patterns to be worn until stocks exhausted" is commonly found.

Be prepared- The RACD Ledgers are handwritten and the Indicies leave a lot to be desired. Because of the nature of entries you will have to find an origin point describing a newly introduced article then follow the pattern changes as it will only record the modification. This is why I have the volumes back to 1900-- I had to find the origin of SD patterns and capture all changes.

Pre WWI records are usually two fold those that do simple pattern records and changes and complimented by a ledger with DEOS/RACD notes/minutes. That is WO359/13 and WO 359/14 cover the same period but with different information.

You'll also find the registries informative about Skill and Trade badges--Dates of approval-Usually pattern rubbings and alternate up dating of patterns that won't be recorded by AO's or ACI's. DEOS and RACD had a lot of power in making changes. I recently just viewed the entries for the 1st and 2nd class scout badges from 1907 which modified the 1905 patterns--included rubbings.

If you get into these it will be frustrating and will probably not answer all your questions but will at least give you eras of pattern changes. Don't discount regimental preference-only any deviation from the norm was usually recorded by the DEOS or RACD in the ledgers.

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

Joe, thank you very much indeed. My next visit to Kew will have to be a two-day one, I can see. It will be a couple of months yet. I will report back!

David