David Abrahamson

[Colin Parkinson]

I am researching David Abrahamson born Leeds 1900. He joined the Royal Fusiliers (78834) and the West Riding (Duke of Wellington) Regiment (60109 & 4603283 - why 2 numbers). Information from Medal Card. Also come across a Pte D Abrahamson 168234 Private 1922 Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment) How can I prove this is a different man?

I have checked genealogical sites and David Abrahamson changed his name to Richard Adamson around 1924.  Will his service record have survived and where can I find it? He is my sister-in-laws grandfather.

Many thanks, I am new to Army records.

Colin

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. There is excellent advice about history research a soldier on the Long Long Trail website, link top left.

Michelle 

[PRC]

35 minutes ago, Colin Parkinson said:

West Riding (Duke of Wellington) Regiment (60109 & 4603283 - why 2 numbers)

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

To answer that bit of your query, the 7 digit numbers were issued postwar for each man who remained in the Regular Army, so giving each a unique identifier that didn't have to change when they moved units. His new number comes from part of a block allocated to the West Riding Regiment.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

 

If he stayed in post 1920 then his records will still be held by the Ministry of Defence. There was a thread on the forum where someone had kindly put together a list of men with pre 1901 dates of birth whose records are available there, but sadly that seems to have been archived. Hopefully someone with better knowledge about these things should be along shortly.

 

If it does turn out the papers are there, then the process for applying for them is here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

If he left before 1920, then if his records survived the blitz, (most didn't), they will be viewable on Ancestry and FindMyPast.

 

If you're not sure about his date of birth then probably worth tracking him down on the 1939 National Register, if he was still alive \ resident England & Wales.

 

Can I assume from the surname that he is Jewish? From memory I believe the British Jewry Great War Roll of Honour, commemorating both those who served as well as those who died, is available on one of the Genealogy sites. May indicate if he continued to serve plus show who the Middlesex Regiment man was.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 23 February , 2020 by PRC
typo

[johnboy]

The seven digit service number would have been issued around 1920

beaten to it

Edited 23 February , 2020 by johnboy

[Mark1959]

Colin

I have found him in the list of records retained by the MoD. This is under his last number and gives his DoB as 10th Jan 1900. These, I understand are available from

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel

There is a fee that I think is £30 and there will be a considerable wait. The seems to be some confusion about his initial. The record is under R Adamson

They retained records of men that served after WW1

I note ancestry has a naturalisation record from 1904 that looks like him and family. 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/115080398/person/302160868548/facts?_phsrc=Rpj1022&_phstart=successSource

 

Edited 23 February , 2020 by Mark1959

[sadbrewer]

It appears his family came from Russia and at the time of their naturalization were living at 11 Skinner Lane, Leeds.

He is here in the National WW1 Roll of Honour

 

 

Edited 23 February , 2020 by sadbrewer

[PRC]

47 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

He is here in the National WW1 Roll of Honour

 

 

Would seem unlikely the Roll of Honour entry is the same man although not impossible.

 

 - Abramson vs Abrahamson

There is a David Abrahamson whose birth was recorded in the Leeds District in Q1 1900 but no D. Abramson recorded any date. On the 1901 Census there is a 1 year old David Abramson, born Leeds, living with parents Michael, (35, Tailor & Clothier, born Russia) and Esther, (32. born Russia) at 20 Vandyke Street, Leeds. Other children are Rebecca, (13, born Russia), and Fanny, (10), Etty, (8), Annie, (6) and Joe, (4), all born Leeds.  No other likely match for a D. Abramson, although of course the National Roll man may only have a Leeds connection post-discharge.

 

Can't seem to find that Abramson family at all on the 1911 Census and no match at all for a David Abramson \ Abrahamson.

The occupants of 11 Skinner Lane, Leeds, (the naturalisation address) were the Levi's. Other than the facts that the parents were from Russia and the father a Tailor, there is no real tie-up of childrens first names, ages and places of birth.

 

So are David and his family recorded elsewhere under another surname variation?

 

- OP has him born 1900, Mark has dob 10th January 1900, yet Roll of Honour already had him in the Army at the outbreak of war.

He would have been over 14, so could have joined up as a Boy Soldier, possibly a musician. But known service numbers don't support that. If he'd joined after the outbreak of war and lied about his age then more likely. Plus of course it depends on which Battles of Ypres and Cambrai he was involved in. Lying about his age and getting out to serve in the 1917 & 1918 ones seems more likely than the 1914 ones. And even without lying about his age he could have been out to fight in the battles of the summer & autumn of 1918. But the Roll of Honour man holds the 1914-15 Star.

 

- Units served with.

Roll of Honour only references the West Riding Regiment, MiC has him also serving with the Royal Fusiliers. But the Roll of Honour entries were supplied by the servicemen or their families, so there has to be a question mark over the information contained there.

 

 - Discharged 1919 versus still in the Army.

Many men re-enlisted as there was a bounty to do so, so he could have left in 1919 and then joined up again. By itself it's not a major issue, but taken with the other points I do have doubts.

 

Hope that makes sense,

Peter

 

 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thank you for all the  very useful guidance. I will see if I am eligible to obtain the Service record, if not will ask my sister-in-law or her cousins as he is their grandfather who died some years ago.

Mark - where did you get Date of Birth of 10 Jan 1900 from? It is correct, I have his birth certificate. I have most of the information I know on the record I have on Ancestry. He was born David Abrahamson but changed his name to Richard Leslie Adamson around 1924, he married on 24 December 1924 and in wedding photo appears in Army uniform. He appears in the 1911 census as David Abramson aged 12 with younger siblings Bey (Ben) and Dora with grandparents Abraham (Ancestry transcribed this as Abrakey) Leventhall and his wife Sarah still living in Leeds.

Is the Roll of Honour an official, accurate document or details submitted by family members?

Thank you.

Colin

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, Colin Parkinson said:

Also come across a Pte D Abrahamson 168234 Private 1922 Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment) How can I prove this is a different man?

 

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Can I assume from the surname that he is Jewish? From memory I believe the British Jewry Great War Roll of Honour, commemorating both those who served as well as those who died, is available on one of the Genealogy sites. May indicate if he continued to serve plus show who the Middlesex Regiment man was.

 

The said book has the same service number 168234 as Abrahams and Abrahamson

Courtesy FindmyPast

 

 

The Medal Roll shows David Abrahamson 78834 was 7th Royal Fusiliers before West Riding

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thanks Charlie, I had noticed the Jewry entry but not the duplication number with alternative name spelling.

Thanks

Colin

[The Inspector]

Hi Colin

You don't mention that his MIC states" Name Changed from David Abrahamson 1925 X"  The X indicating File No. 68/A/761. The David Abrahamson MIC also confirms the three numbers and the file reference. Ancestry has the latter card indexed as LAIRD Abrahamson ( R Adamson). This would appear to be the original card as some writing is in pencil and the other does not have the medal roll information on it. I think you can discount the number 168234.

Regards Barry

[Colin Parkinson]

Thanks for your interest. Laird or Zaird is I believe a mis-transcript of David. File number 68/A/761 means what? Sorry for my ignorance. I confirm David Abrahamson changed his name to Richard Leslie Adamson. We have David up to 1911 and Richard from 1924, the name change on his Medal card links his names.

Colin

[travers61]

3 hours ago, Colin Parkinson said:

Thank you for all the  very useful guidance. I will see if I am eligible to obtain the Service record, if not will ask my sister-in-law or her cousins as he is their grandfather who died some years ago.

Mark - where did you get Date of Birth of 10 Jan 1900 from? It is correct, I have his birth certificate. I have most of the information I know on the record I have on Ancestry. He was born David Abrahamson but changed his name to Richard Leslie Adamson around 1924, he married on 24 December 1924 and in wedding photo appears in Army uniform. He appears in the 1911 census as David Abramson aged 12 with younger siblings Bey (Ben) and Dora with grandparents Abraham (Ancestry transcribed this as Abrakey) Leventhall and his wife Sarah still living in Leeds.

Is the Roll of Honour an official, accurate document or details submitted by family members?

Thank you.

Colin

 

 

To get a service record from the MOD for a soldier with post 1920 service, who died over 25 years ago you do not have to be next of kin or even family, and as he was born over 116 years ago a death certificate is not even required.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel