Abbreviation 'A.C.4' in records

[Histoire]

Any idea what this means? For context it is c.Feb 1916 and is within the 'Regt or Depot' column of the Statement of Services paperwork.

 

Thanks

Edited 16 February , 2020 by Histoire

[Terry_Reeves]

Does this document refer to an officer? If so it might AG 4.

 

TR

[Histoire]

14 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Does this document refer to an officer? If so it might AG 4.

 

TR

Thanks Terry.

 

No, he's a Private. I'm attaching an image of the offending term below.

 

Thanks

 

[MaxD]

Army Cyclist [Corps] 4 [Div] ?  Is he overseas at that date shown?

 

Max

[Histoire]

Thanks Max

 

He was just back in the UK from the MEF via Malta.

 

Any info about the Army Cyclist Corps at all? Perhaps it could tie in with his location at the time..but then again that may be too easy

[kenf48]

Suggest you have a look at the LLT

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-sussex-regiment/

 

In the absence of a name or any other context which makes things rather difficult to say the least, it appears he  enlisted as a TF soldier in the 2/4 or second line (reserve) 4th Bn Royal Sussex on the 5th October (1914?). On the 12th July 1915 he was posted to the first line 1/4 Battalion and presumably embarked overseas to the Dardanelles with that Battalion.  Invalided back to the UK he was posted to a home service unit of the 4th Battalion.  The AC probably does refer to Army Cyclists but in the 3/6 which was absorbed by the 4th Bn in April 1916.

 

He was then posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, another Home Service unit which became the 15th Battalion Royal Sussex on the 1st September 1917.  On the 19th September (?) posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion Royal Sussex.

 

Essentially what you are looking at is a man who served in the Dardanelles Campaign who was not fit enough to return to active duty overseas on the dates you have posted but remained in the Royal Sussex Regiment between enlistment and  the 19th September (?).

 

Ken

 

[owen4256]

In this context Administrative Centre 4th Royal Sussex see attached extract from the Sussex Agricultural Express October 1915

 

Best

 

Clive

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, owen4256 said:

In this context Administrative Centre 4th Royal Sussex see attached extract from the Sussex Agricultural Express October 1915

 

 

That makes more sense, probably hospitalised, or recovering.

 

Ken

[MaxD]

I'd say Clive has it.

 

Max

[Histoire]

Thanks all.

 

Yes, he was suffering with Dysentry and others.

Following return to the UK had subsequent postings to Kent and the Irish Rifles, and a transfer to the ASC.

 

I am confused about army organisation, maybe you can help. Were the members of a corps (in this case AC) distributed across different battalions? So someone could, say, be in both the Sussex and the A.C. corps?

 

Was a posting effectively a temporary transfer, i.e. being posted from Sussex to Kent was a loan rather than a transfer?

 

Thanks again.

[kenf48]

11 minutes ago, Histoire said:

I am confused about army organisation, maybe you can help. Were the members of a corps (in this case AC) distributed across different battalions? So someone could, say, be in both the Sussex and the A.C. corps?

 

I think we are agreed, it's not Army Cyclists but as Clive has shown Administrative Centre 4th Battalion.

 

The administrative centre for the TF was roughly the equivalent of the 'Depot Battalion' of regular battalions and usually located within the Headquarters of a Territorial Force.

 

They dealt with the recruiting of men to the TF, initial issue of kit, initial posting etc.  

Men who were non-operational due to sickness or wounds were usually placed on the 'Depot' strength until recovered when they were posted to a Reserve Battalion or Home Service unit where they remained until fit enough for active service overseas.  He may have been on 'light duties' at the AC.  In February 1916 direct enlistment and recruitment to the TF virtually ceased with the introduction of the Military Service Act. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Histoire said:

Was a posting effectively a temporary transfer, i.e. being posted from Sussex to Kent was a loan rather than a transfer?

 

Not exactly, in the fragment you have posted this man remained with units of the Royal Sussex.  

 

He joined the Royal Sussex and was posted to the 2/4 , a reserve unit, he was posted to the 1/4 to bring that Battalion put to strength for active overseas service. On repatriation he was posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion (or AC) which was renamed in April 1916 (see LLT).   In June he was posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, Provisional Battalions were relatively short lived, they were formed in June 1915 from men in the County TF Association units who had not signed the Imperial Obligation for Overseas Service or for some other reason were only fit for Home Service.  On the 1st January 1917 they received Regimental titles and the 70th was designated 15th Battalion Royal Sussex (see LLT as previously posted).

 

He would have been transferred to the Kent Regiment and renumbered, and again to the Irish Rifles I suspect these occurred in France, however the record may show 'posted'  The two terms are used interchangeably in the records.  Essentially if he was renumbered to either of the two regiments he was not 'on loan'.  

We often see, for example men who were 'posted on loan' or 'attached' to a unit and the transfer becoming permanent some months later.

 

Ken

[Histoire]

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

I think we are agreed, it's not Army Cyclists but as Clive has shown Administrative Centre 4th Battalion.

 

"Perhaps I missed it, but I couldn't see anything posted by 'Clive'?" That would make sense though, being ill bounding about on a bike would probably be the last thing to do...

 

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The administrative centre for the TF was roughly the equivalent of the 'Depot Battalion' of regular battalions and usually located within the Headquarters of a Territorial Force.

 

They dealt with the recruiting of men to the TF, initial issue of kit, initial posting etc.  

Men who were non-operational due to sickness or wounds were usually placed on the 'Depot' strength

 

"what does 'depot strength' mean please?

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

until recovered when they were posted to a Reserve Battalion or Home Service unit where they remained until fit enough for active service overseas.  He may have been on 'light duties' at the AC.  In February 1916 direct enlistment and recruitment to the TF virtually ceased with the introduction of the Military Service Act. 

 

 

 

Not exactly, in the fragment you have posted this man remained with units of the Royal Sussex.  

 

Sorry, I meant subsequent to this part of the record. please see additional fragment attached here.

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

He joined the Royal Sussex and was posted to the 2/4 , a reserve unit, he was posted to the 1/4 to bring that Battalion put to strength for active overseas service. On repatriation he was posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion (or AC) which was renamed in April 1916 (see LLT).   In June he was posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, Provisional Battalions were relatively short lived, they were formed in June 1915 from men in the County TF Association units who had not signed the Imperial Obligation for Overseas Service or for some other reason were only fit for Home Service.  On the 1st January 1917 they received Regimental titles and the 70th was designated 15th Battalion Royal Sussex (see LLT as previously posted).

 

He would have been transferred to the Kent Regiment and renumbered, and again to the Irish Rifles I suspect these occurred in France, however the record may show 'posted'  The two terms are used interchangeably in the records.  Essentially if he was renumbered to either of the two regiments he was not 'on loan'.  

Ah, ambiguous Army records again..

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

We often see, for example men who were 'posted on loan' or 'attached' to a unit and the transfer becoming permanent some months later.

That's interesting, thanks. So if it were a temp loan, it would be indicated somehow? (in theory at least)

 

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Ken

 

[Histoire]

34 minutes ago, Histoire said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Histoire said:

additional fragments attached here

 

 

Edited 21 February , 2020 by Histoire
caption

[kenf48]

The post from Clive is the press cutting at post 7 

 

The Regimental Depot was the administrative headquarters of a Regiment, pre-WW1 most County Regiments had two active service Battalions who rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.  The Depot was responsible for, amongst other things recruitment and and training. It was the  HQ and repository of Regimental records and traditions.  The TF Administrative Centre performed a roughly similar function for TF Units.  During the war men were posted to the ‘Depot’ strength if they were inactive, it was a ‘paper’ posting for pay and allowances, it did not necessarily mean they were physically at the Depot (or AC).  For example a man hospitalised from an active service Battalion would be replaced, he could not be an ‘orphan’ so was posted to the Depot Strength whilst he recovered.  On recovery he would be posted to a Reserve Battalion (the increase in numbers and exigencies of the war meant the Depot/Training Battalions evolved but the HQ/administrative functions remained the same) and from there to an active duty unit.  This pattern is reflected in your man's service.

 

The chronology for your mystery man shows he, along with hundreds of others was ‘combed out’ from a Home Service unit, probably having been declared fit at the end of 1916.  He was posted back to what by then had become the 4th (Reserve) Battalion.  From there he was posted to the Infantry Base Depot (IBD) in France, probably with the expectation he would be joining a Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  The IBD was a ‘melting pot’ and men were sent where they were most needed.  He was initially posted to the London Regiment (a TF Unit) but did not serve with them in the field before he was transferred, as suspected, to the 15th Bn Royal Irish Rifles.  This Battalion was in the 36th (Ulster) Division that had suffered tremendous loss on the Somme in 1916.  The war diary shows two drafts of 59 and 183 arrived on the 7th.

 

it appears he was wounded at Ypres (or was sick) and was posted to the Depot of the Rifles and then to another Home Service unit, he 19th Battalion which was formed from the Depot Companies of the 15th and 16th Bns.

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-irish-rifles/

 

From there he was transferred to ASC and posted to the Home Service Kent Force.  After his experience I suggest his medical category was down graded from A to C, that is fitness for Home Service only.

 

 

Yes if he was attached that would be shown in his statement of service.

 

It is a lot easier to interpret a record if we know who he is.

 

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Histoire]

That is extremely helpful, thanks Ken. Interestingly the paperwork shows him ending the war with a different number then enlisted on (which makes sense) but there is no obvious record of him having received that number. I expect that is simply an omission in the records (?)

 

Re Clive. Sorry Clive, I was looking over the usernames hence I missed you. Thanks.

[kenf48]

 

 

He would have received a different number each time he changed Regiment, so four digit TF number to Royal Sussex; four or six digit number to the London Regiment; probably five digit number to RIR and finally his ASC number, they usually had a prefix indicating his duty.

 It is unusual that none of his new numbers were noted when he transferred.

 

Medals were named to the first unit he served with in a theatre of war, and their issue administered by the records office of his final unit, so he would appear on the ASC Rolls.  Interim postings were not administratively necessary for the issue of medals.

 

Ken

[Histoire]

On 21/02/2020 at 23:37, kenf48 said:

The post from Clive is the press cutting at post 7 

 

The Regimental Depot was the administrative headquarters of a Regiment, pre-WW1 most County Regiments had two active service Battalions who rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.  The Depot was responsible for, amongst other things recruitment and and training. It was the  HQ and repository of Regimental records and traditions.  The TF Administrative Centre performed a roughly similar function for TF Units.  During the war men were posted to the ‘Depot’ strength if they were inactive, it was a ‘paper’ posting for pay and allowances, it did not necessarily mean they were physically at the Depot (or AC).  For example a man hospitalised from an active service Battalion would be replaced, he could not be an ‘orphan’ so was posted to the Depot Strength whilst he recovered.  On recovery he would be posted to a Reserve Battalion (the increase in numbers and exigencies of the war meant the Depot/Training Battalions evolved but the HQ/administrative functions remained the same) and from there to an active duty unit.  This pattern is reflected in your man's service.

 

The chronology for your mystery man shows he, along with hundreds of others was ‘combed out’ from a Home Service unit, probably having been declared fit at the end of 1916.  He was posted back to what by then had become the 4th (Reserve) Battalion.  From there he was posted to the Infantry Base Depot (IBD) in France, probably with the expectation he would be joining a Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  The IBD was a ‘melting pot’ and men were sent where they were most needed.  He was initially posted to the London Regiment (a TF Unit) but did not serve with them in the field before he was transferred, as suspected, to the 15th Bn Royal Irish Rifles.  This Battalion was in the 36th (Ulster) Division that had suffered tremendous loss on the Somme in 1916.  The war diary shows two drafts of 59 and 183 arrived on the 7th.

 

it appears he was wounded at Ypres (or was sick) and was posted to the Depot of the Rifles and then to another Home Service unit, he 19th Battalion which was formed from the Depot Companies of the 15th and 16th Bns.

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-irish-rifles/

 

From there he was transferred to ASC and posted to the Home Service Kent Force.  After his experience I suggest his medical category was down graded from A to C, that is fitness for Home Service only.

 

 

Yes if he was attached that would be shown in his statement of service.

 

It is a lot easier to interpret a record if we know who he is.

 

 

 

 

 

On 21/02/2020 at 23:37, kenf48 said:

 

Hi Ken

This is very helpful thanks. The man is Henry William Wells (born 1895)

 

Do you have any references or sources for the info in your post, please? I'm sure it's correct, I just need to include them.

 

Thanks

[kenf48]

7 hours ago, Histoire said:

Do you have any references or sources for the info in your post, please?

 

Not sure what you mean by reference or sources, it's all on his service record.

 

For a description of the British Army and its organisation immediately prior to 1914 and its preparation for war, recommend the late Charles Messenger  'Call to Arms'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Call-Arms-British-1914-18-Cassell/dp/0304367222

also 'A Nation in Arms' Beckett and Simpson

on Amazon here

 

There is a good introduction to the TF on the Long Long Trail https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

 The seminal work is Michison's trilogy, if a little expensive

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-Hope-Territorial-1908-14/dp/0230574548

(I didn't pay that!)

 

The combing out and Military Service Act  (Review of Exemptions) 1917 following the 'Manpower Crisis' post 1916 is well documented.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

[Histoire]

9 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

 

Thanks ken

 

By sources I mean for your more general assertions. For example, how do we know these things/where are they documented?:

 

1. The Regimental Depot was the administrative headquarters of a Regiment, pre-WW1 most County Regiments had two active service Battalions who rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.  

 

2. The Depot was responsible for, amongst other things recruitment and and training. It was the  HQ and repository of Regimental records and traditions.  

The TF Administrative Centre performed a roughly similar function for TF Units.  

 

3. During the war men were posted to the ‘Depot’ strength if they were inactive, it was a ‘paper’ posting for pay and allowances, it did not necessarily mean they were physically at the Depot (or AC).  For example a man hospitalised from an active service Battalion would be replaced, he could not be an ‘orphan’ so was posted to the Depot Strength whilst he recovered.  

 

4. On recovery he would be posted to a Reserve Battalion (the increase in numbers and exigencies of the war meant the Depot/Training Battalions evolved but the HQ/administrative functions remained the same) and from there to an active duty unit.  This pattern is reflected in your man's service.

 

 

5. The IBD was a ‘melting pot’ and men were sent where they were most needed. 

 

 

6. This Battalion was in the 36th (Ulster) Division that had suffered tremendous loss on the Somme in 1916.  The war diary shows two drafts of 59 and 183 arrived on the 7th.

 

 

7. 19th Battalion which was formed from the Depot Companies of the 15th and 16th Bns.

 

 

8. C, that is fitness for Home Service only.

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Not sure what you mean by reference or sources, it's all on his service record.

 

For a description of the British Army and its organisation immediately prior to 1914 and its preparation for war, recommend the late Charles Messenger  'Call to Arms'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Call-Arms-British-1914-18-Cassell/dp/0304367222

also 'A Nation in Arms' Beckett and Simpson

on Amazon here

 

There is a good introduction to the TF on the Long Long Trail https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

 The seminal work is Michison's trilogy, if a little expensive

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-Hope-Territorial-1908-14/dp/0230574548

(I didn't pay that!)

 

The combing out and Military Service Act  (Review of Exemptions) 1917 following the 'Manpower Crisis' post 1916 is well documented.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kenf48]

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

By sources I mean for your more general assertions. For example, how do we know these things/where are they documented?:

 

To state the obvious this is an internet forum, not an academic essay and much of that which I wrote is based on experience and researching soldiers

 

That said, and since you asked and I'm bored:-

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

1. The Regimental Depot was the administrative headquarters of a Regiment, pre-WW1 most County Regiments had two active service Battalions who rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.  

 

2. The Depot was responsible for, amongst other things recruitment and and training. It was the  HQ and repository of Regimental records and traditions.  

 

The structure of the Army in 1914 came about through a series of reforms in the 19th Century, the primary objective for which was to provide a force to police the Empire.  

 

As an example, and as it is your area of interest, the Royal Sussex Regiment was formed by the ‘Childers Reforms of 1881, when the 35th (Royal Sussex)Regiment and the 107th Regiment of Foot (Bengal light Infantry)
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/royal-sussex-regiment

 

Further reform, especially with regard to reserve units, was prompted by the experience of the Boer War, and culminated in the Haldane reforms of 1907 which led to the formation of the Territorial Force the following year.  This was legislated for in the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_and_Reserve_Forces_Act_1907

 

There is no one reference for the structure of the Army as it existed in August 1914, the seminal work is Major Becke’s Order of Battle Volumes 1 -4,  although out of print reprints are available https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/order-of-battle-of-divisions-part-1-the-regular-british-division/.

The information therein is used in the description of each regiment on the Long Long Trail website.  The County Infantry Regiments were the backbone of the Army.  The overseas Battalions, the majority of which were in India were kept up to strength from the Home Service Battalion.

 

The disposition of the Royal Sussex Regiment in August 1914 was:-

Regimental Depot and recruiting base at The Barracks, Chichester.  The 1st Battalion was quartered at Peshawar, India and the 2nd Battalion was at Woking with the 2nd Brigade, 1st Division.   There was also a 3rd Battalion based at the Depot at Chichester, this was the Special Reserve essentially locally raised civilians who had agreed to undertake training and serve overseas in the Regular Army if required.

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

The TF Administrative Centre performed a roughly similar function for TF Units.

 

The TF Infantry Battalions were formed in 1908, generally for home service. As always with some exceptions they took their title from the County Regiment but were administered by a County Territorial Association with the Lord Lieutenant of the County at its head.  Initially  men were recruited for Home Service. I have already referred to Michison and Beckett, and for reference Ray Westlake’s excellent and exhaustive ’The Territorials 1908 -1914. 

The latter identifies the Headquarters of the 4th Battalion Royal Sussex as originally at Worthing, later moving to Horsham.  The 5th (Cinque Ports ) Battalion was headquartered at Hastings.  The Companies were stationed at major towns in what is now East and West Sussex respectively.  Both Battalions were Army Troops attached to the Home Counties (TF) Division.  The 6th (Cyclist) Battalion was not formed until 1912 and was based in Brighton and Lewes, it was unattached.  So this was the situation for the Royal Sussex Regiment in August 1914.  Significantly, there was no central regimental Depot or administrative centre for the TF Battalions before the surge in recruitment in 1914/15..

 

The County Associations were left pretty much to their own devices as to how they organised recruitment and administration. During the war the Headquarters of the respective Battalions were formed into Depots for the TF under the administrative control of the County Association.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/territorial-force-depots/

 

The raising of New Army Battalions is outside of the scope of this thread, however the raising of the reserve battalions of the Territorial Force is relevant.  Authority was given by the War Office for the first of these to be raised on the 31 August 1914.  The County Associations had no authority to do so without the permission of the War Office.
See also https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

3. During the war men were posted to the ‘Depot’ strength if they were inactive, it was a ‘paper’ posting for pay and allowances, it did not necessarily mean they were physically at the Depot (or AC).  For example a man hospitalised from an active service Battalion would be replaced, he could not be an ‘orphan’ so was posted to the Depot Strength whilst he recovered.  

 

Everything in the Army was governed by King's Regulations or orders and instructions issued by the War Office or Army Council.

I do not know which ACI or Regulation required a man who was sick or hospitalised away from his unit to be placed on the Depot strength, but all service records evidence this fact.  The Casualty Form (Army Form B.103) of Pte. Wells evidences his postings.   An entry for 19 August shows he was placed on the nominal roll of the Divisional Base Depot at Mudros.  He does not appear to have actually landed on the Peninsula. 

His record shows he was posted to AC 4 (i.e. as established above Administrative Centre 4th Battalion) on the 10th February 1916, the day he was admitted to hospital in Aberdeen.

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

 

4. On recovery he would be posted to a Reserve Battalion (the increase in numbers and exigencies of the war meant the Depot/Training Battalions evolved but the HQ/administrative functions remained the same) and from there to an active duty unit.  This pattern is reflected in your man's service.

 

His service record

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

 

5. The IBD was a ‘melting pot’ and men were sent where they were most needed. 

 

Again this is evidenced by service records of men posted to the BEF.  It is also evidenced in the service record of Pte. Wells, given he went out wearing a Royal Sussex cap badge, was posted to the London Regiment and finally to the Royal Irish Rifles. The IBD is discussed in some length in the previously referenced Messenger,  ‘Call To Arms’. 

Briefly, the IBD originally had a Divisional affiliation, this meant reinforcements were sent to France and fed into say, an Irish  Division from 16 (Irish) IBD.  It soon became apparent, especially after the losses on the Somme that there was an imbalance between the reinforcement required for one Battalion compared to reinforcements arriving for other Battalions  that had not suffered commensurate loss.  This was particularly so in the Irish Regiments as conscription was not applied there.  As a result the Army Order previously referred to, i.e. AO 204 & Army Council Instruction 1499 of 1916 was promulgated which effectively meant men could be posted where most required, irrespective of original terms of enlistment or previous postings in the U.K.

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

 

6. This Battalion was in the 36th (Ulster) Division that had suffered tremendous loss on the Somme in 1916.

Becke's ibid; see also https://www.royal-irish.com/stories/the-36th-ulster-division-on-1-july-1916

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

The war diary shows two drafts of 59 and 183 arrived on the 7th.

War Diary 15th Irish Rifles TNA WO95/2503/5 or on Ancestry here free this weekend

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

7. 19th Battalion which was formed from the Depot Companies of the 15th and 16th Bns.

Becke's and LLT http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-irish-rifles/

 

22 hours ago, Histoire said:

8. C, that is fitness for Home Service only.

Having had an opportunity to see his record when discharged from hospital in 1918 he was Biii graded III

and regraded Bi in June 1918.

The system evolved during the war,see post 5

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/207059-medical-categories/

 

 

Ken

[Histoire]

52 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

To state the obvious this is an internet forum, not an academic essay and much of that which I wrote is based on experience and researching soldiers

 

Thanks ken. You clearly know and enjoy your stuff. 

 

With respect, the fact this is an internet forum means anyone can post anything on it; accurate or not. You will know that the web is notorious for inaccurate information. It's also an anonymous medium, which compounds the issue.

 

You may agree that regardless, in any research, (which is academic - internet or not) it is common practice to reference sources upon which one is basing an assertion. This of course allows others to follow the trail, and expand and validate the information. For example you say 'he would be posted to a service battalion' which suggests this is a general process applied to all; not a one-off applied to this man, based on his service record. Therefore if this applies to everyone as implied, the source would not be his service record; but 'something' else. And so it is reasonable to check what this is based on, don't you agree.

 

In any case, you have clarified the sources as being your knowledge, presumably based on your readings as referenced (LLT et al)

 

Best

Histoire