1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers

[TERLESKI2]

I have been on the forum in the past but having lost my password and unable to reactivate it I have joined with a second name

 

Whilst previously on the forum, members were incredibly helpful in finding my grandfathers original number. He was Fred Wood 1391 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers (became 200165 in renumbering)

 

He was wounded in 1917. I'm trying to find out several things. Is it possible to trace what company he was in? I believe (pretty sure) he was injured 6/9/1915 at Borry, what would have been his evacuation route? (he was brought in three days after the attack)

 

If anyone can shed further light I would be over the moon

 

Many thanks to you all

 

Christopher

[TERLESKI2]

oups should have said 6/9/1917

[jonbem]

Hi Christopher and welcome back

The 14-15 star roll on Ancestry HERE only mentions the 1/5 Btn.

Name:F Wood

Military Year:1914-1915

Rank:Private

Unit:1/5 Battalion (T.F.)

Company:WO 329

Regiment or Corps:Lancashire Fusiliers

Regiment Number:1391

Medal Awarded:1914-1915 Star

regards

Jon

[jonbem]

Does the MIC HERE suggest he died of wounds? or is it Duration of War?

Edited 13 February , 2020 by jonbem

[Michelle Young]

Welcome back, I've merged your two account into this one, as dual membership isn't allowed.

Michelle 

[jonbem]

Here is the old thread in case you couldn't find it

 

 

[TERLESKI2]

oups should have said 6/9/1917

 

great to be back and thanks for merging the accounts Michelle

 

I've now retired so I can now spend much more time on my Grandad's case

 

Concerning 1391 it took some time to ascertain that he had not been killed during WW1 but you managed to get this one out of the way

 

I'm looking forward to reading all your replies

 

Many thanks

 

Christopher

 

[TERLESKI2]

Many thanks for renewing the original exchanges which at the time enabled me to obtain  a great amount of information. Since then I have had the two crucial numbers 1391 and 200165 (He ended up as as a sergreant). 

 

The 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers war diary has also helped a lot for the period from March 1916 to September 1917

 

My grandfather told me that he had been wounded in front of Ypres during an attack.

 

His brother Thomas Wood (2109) was wounded on June 6th 1915 in Krithia 2. He was in B company and was shot through the arm. This info was confirmed by his son, my great cousin before Altzheimer got the better of him

 

What I am now trying to piece together is trying establish in which company he served and what was the likely evacuation route after injury.

 

He told me that he has spent three days in no man's land after being wounded before being brought in with a bad leg wound. 

 

If anyone cn help or tell me where to look  I would be very grateful

 

Christopher

[Mark Hone]

No doubt you could examine 42nd Division War Diaries to establish what their medical arrangements were for the Borry Farm action. It's only a small clue but I've researched an incident involving soldiers from the same battalion a few days earlier. On 1st September 1917, a ration party bringing forward supplies was shelled. Four soldiers, including Bury Grammar School old boy Captain Austin Hudson were killed outright and have no known graves-they are commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial. Several others were wounded and three subsequently died. These men are now buried in Ypres Town Cemetery extension but were originally interred at Grid Reference 28.I.5.d.6.3. (Concentration of Graves Return, available on CWGC website)  If you put this into the tMapper.com program this yields a location just north of the N37 to Zonnebeke not far from the famous RE Grave Railway Wood. This may give an indication of where some of the medical facilities used by the battalion were located at the time. Alternatively, it could just be close to the scene of the Ration Party incident. 

Captain Hudson had served with 1/5th LF throughout the war and may well have known your grandfather. He was originally a member of C Company. His detailed obituary is here:

http://bgsarchive.co.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_boys_rollofhonour&columnName=filename&recordId=63

 

Also on our Roll of Honour is Corporal Gordon Geldard, who served with the sister 1/6th Battalion LF, but whose career was otherwise very similar. He served at Gallipoli and was killed in the disastrous attack on Borry and Iberian Farms on 6th September:

http://bgsarchive.co.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_boys_rollofhonour&columnName=filename&recordId=65

 

 

 

Edited 19 February , 2020 by Mark Hone

[Mark Hone]

It has occurred to me that if you plotted the burials of men with known graves from 1st/5th LF who died in the aftermath of the 6th September attack you might be able to get a fair idea of the likely medical evacuation route. Of course, as with the example I mention above, you would have to be careful to identify whether post-war concentration of graves had taken place and then use the documentation on the CWGC site to establish where they had originally been buried. 

EDIT: Not that much help I'm afraid. I did a quick search using the CWGC site. Of the 100 or so men who died serving with 1/5th LF from 6th-15th September 1917, most have no known graves and are commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial. Several soldiers have known graves in Tyne Cot Cemetery, the sample I checked having been brought in post war from isolated burial sites in the area between the motorway and the outskirts of Zonnebeke, mostly around the village of Frezenburg, as one would expect from the location of the battle. This also turns out to be true of the men now buried in Potijze Chateau Grounds and Bedford House Cemetery. 

However, some evidence of the evacuation chain is given by the burial of two men at Ypres Reservoir Cemetery, three at Lijssenthoek, four at Mendinghem and one at Dozinghem. Lance Corporal Herbert Wagstaffe, from Biggleswade in Bedfordshire, made it as far as the base hospital at Wimereux, on the coast, where he died on 9th September. 

Edited 19 February , 2020 by Mark Hone

[TERLESKI2]

Many thanks for your replies

 

I had also worked on the idea of the post attack burial sites, particularly for the few who died of wounds. I have a tendancy to favour Lijssenthoek, but it's so easy to draw the wrong conclusions. I'll have to keep searching

 

For anyone who may be interested I have plotted on a street map of Bury the adresses of the 1/5th soldiers killed in action regarding their proximity to my Granfathers house in Pine Street. I have traced 92 soldiers who had lived in Bury and Elton, 51  who lived within 1 mile, 20 who lived within 1/2 mile and 6 who had lived less than 1/4 mile away. Most of the them (70) were killed in Gallipoli when the Bury contingent was very strong dating from Territorial Force attatchments before the outbreak of war and those who enrolled before during September 1914. 

 

Thanks for any more contributions

[brianmorris547]

The WD for 125 Infantry Brigade can be found on Ancestry under Divisional HQ - 42 Div - Piece 2654 and contains Intelligence Summaries leading up to the attack which are worth reading. Operational Order 35 mentioned in the WD, which may have some instructions about casualties, does not appear in the appendixes. I could not find it in the WD of 42 Div HQ - Piece 2645 either but there are lots of maps and Instructions for the attack. There is only a mention of the number of casualties in the WD of 42 Div A&QMG - Piece 2647.

Brian

[TERLESKI2]

many thanks Brian

 

I'll have a look into this

 

Christopher

[TERLESKI2]

On 13/02/2020 at 19:28, jonbem said:

Hi Christopher and welcome back

The 14-15 star roll on Ancestry HERE only mentions the 1/5 Btn.

Name:F Wood

Military Year:1914-1915

Rank:Private

Unit:1/5 Battalion (T.F.)

Company:WO 329

Regiment or Corps:Lancashire Fusiliers

Regiment Number:1391

Medal Awarded:1914-1915 Star

regards

Jon

 

[TERLESKI2]

Back again

 

his original nimber was 1391

 

renumbered 200165

 

wounded ypres 1917

I am trying to find out In which Colmant hé was when wounded

 

thanks for any help

 

christopher

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hi Christopher, I presume that "Colmant" in your last post was a typo for "Company"?

I have been reading this thread because my grandfather, Captain Norman Hall, served in the 1/5th LF from June 1917 to August 1918, so including the period when your grandfather was wounded.

You say that you have read the 1/5th LF War Diary. Unfortunately, although the diary itself for September 1917 is present and correct at the National Archives, the appendices appear to be missing,; instead there are a number of documents relating to the 1/5th East Lancs Regiment. 

Have you read the WD for the 125th Brigade for the relevant period, mentioned above by brianmorris547? As he says, it contains some interesting reports surrounding the Borry Farm attack, though the account of the attack itself is quite brief, and there is no casualty list.

I thought you might be interested to know that my grandfather wrote a diary of his WW1 experiences, which is now in the IWM for safekeeping. I have just produced an edited version of the diary, to be published on 11/11/20 (see the website noted in my signature for further details). The published version focuses mainly on my grandad's experiences up to September 1916 while he was with the 2/5th LF, but there is quite a lengthy Afterword summarising his later service.

By September 1917 my grandad was OC of "C" Company of the 1/5th LF. "C" and "D" Companies were selected to take part in the attack on Borry Farm. However, my grandad was not involved in the attack, initially because he was designated as "Battle Surplus" (which, as you will no doubt be aware, was a system of keeping back a proportion of experienced troops so as to be able to carry on and rebuild the Battalion in the event of heavy casualties), and then because he was appointed as temporary Quartermaster to replace Lieutenant Clem Whitaker, who was wounded on the same night as Captain Hudson (mentioned by Mark Hone in one of his posts in this thread).

He does, however, give a brief account of the attack, no doubt learned first hand from those who did take part. "C" Company suffered particularly badly. His account includes the following:

 

The Battalion attacked at 8.00am. “C” Company got the full force of the German fire, and in a very few minutes the Company was practically wiped out; they were reduced from five officers and 157 NCOs and men to two officers and 30 other ranks; this was by 8.30am. Fire came from all directions – even from Boche Snipers who had crept out early in the morning into No Man’s Land and concealed themselves amongst the killed who were still lying out from the previous day’s attack. These fellows even blacked their faces. They certainly were very brave – but were certain to be shot on the spot if caught – and many of them were.

Anyway, despite heavy losses, the survivors pressed doggedly on – their courage unavailing and the Iberian and BORRY positions were never reached. Beck House in the centre had a less exposed approach and was captured. This objective was finally attacked during the day by fresh storm troops, 3 coys in a counter attack, and all our troops were either captured or killed, not one came back.

Late in the day – orders were received to abandon any further attacks on BORRY & Iberian, and the Survivors reluctantly withdrew – leaving many of their pals lying out killed, and all to no avail. Much gallantry had been shown by all ranks and a number of distinctions were won in all battalions.

 

"D" Company also lost heavily, but not as heavily as "C" Company.

The 1/5th LF WD records that the 1/5th LF were relieved by the 1/5th Manchesters on 7/9/1917, who I believe were in the 127th Brigade. If your grandad was lying out for 3 days, the chances are therefore that it would have been their RAP which initially treated him and sent him on his way along the evacuation route. It might just be worth looking at their war diary, in case they have commented on rescuing men from No Man's Land, given that my grandad says many men were left lying out.

My grandad ends the account in his original diary by saying:

 

“C” Coy returned with Capt Tickler, Lt St Barbe, and 23 other ranks and myself still “C” Coy. Only three days previously they had left camp with 157 other ranks.

“D” Coy were also hit pretty heavily, but nothing like as badly as “C” Coy.

A & B were more fortunate, having been in Support.

 

I'm afraid that he only names the officer casualties, not the other ranks. It would seem most likely, looking at sheer numbers, that your grandad was in "C" Company, but "D" Company is also possible; "A" or "B" seem unlikely.

I hope that this helps.

Edited 9 November , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy