Private Reginald Dunne and Private Joe O'Sullivan - the killers of Sir Henry Wilson

[Ronan McGreevy]

My name is Ronan McGreevy. 

I am the author of the book Wherever the Firing Line Extends: Ireland and the Western Front. 

I am currently researching a book about the assassination of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson on June 22nd, 1922. 

I am looking for information about the war service of Reginald Dunne (Irish Guards) and Joe O'Sullivan (Royal Munster Fusiliers) in the First World War. 

I am particularly interested in the circumstances in which O'Sullivan lost a leg during the war. 

Any help in that regard would be gratefully received and acknowledged. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Ronan McGreevy said:

My name is Ronan McGreevy. 

I am the author of the book Wherever the Firing Line Extends: Ireland and the Western Front. 

I am currently researching a book about the assassination of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson on June 22nd, 1922. 

I am looking for information about the war service of Reginald Dunne (Irish Guards) and Joe O'Sullivan (Royal Munster Fusiliers) in the First World War. 

I am particularly interested in the circumstances in which O'Sullivan lost a leg during the war. 

Any help in that regard would be gratefully received and acknowledged. 

 

If you can give more information about these men, such as date of birth, home town and perhaps full names if they had more than one, there are usually genealogy detectives who can assist you in learning more about them. 

[corisande]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I am looking for information about the war service of Reginald Dunne (Irish Guards) and Joe O'Sullivan (Royal Munster Fusiliers) in the First World War. 

 

 

There  is a great deal known about both these men, and I think that the OP only wants info on the leg loss.

 

Joseph O'Sullivan (25 January 1897 – 10 August 1922), along with fellow IRA volunteer Reginald Dunne, shot dead Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson on his doorstep at 36 Eaton Place in London on 22 June 1922.^[1] He was hanged for the murder on 10 August 1922 at Wandsworth Prison. The event provided the inspiration for the film Odd Man Out.

 

O'Sullivan's father John was originally from Bantry, County Cork, and had moved to London as a young man where he eventually became a successful tailor. O'Sullivan's mother, Mary Ann O'Sullivan (née Murphy), was born in Inniscarra, County Cork. O'Sullivan was the youngest of a thirteen children, all born in London, although only eleven survived to adulthood. As a boy he attended St Edmund's College, Ware. On 25 January 1915 (his eighteenth birthday) O'Sullivan enlisted into the Royal Munster Fusiliers, and later transferred to the London Regiment and served with the rank of lance corporal during the First World War and lost a leg at Ypres in 1917.^[2]

 

On being discharged from the army in 1918, O'Sullivan was employed by the Ministry of Munitions and, when the war ended, was transferred to the Ministry of Labour where he worked as a messenger. The Ministry of Labour was located in Montagu House, later demolished and replaced by the present day Ministry of Defence. Montagu House was located adjacent to Scotland Yard.

 

He became a member of Irish Republican Army detachment in London, and was named by Rex Taylor as being responsible for the murder of Vincent Fovargue as a British spy at the Ashford Golf Links, Middlesex, on 5 April 1921 with a label pinned to his body stating "Let spies and traitors beware, IRA". Fovargue had been an officer in the Dublin IRA.^{[citation needed]}

O'Sullivan's brother, Patrick O'Sullivan, was the first Vice-Commandant of the London IRA during its early days in 1919 but was seconded to the Cork No. 1 Brigade for the period of the Anglo-Irish War. Patrick O'Sullivan had also served in the London Regiment during the First World War, along with another brother, Aloysius, who was discharged from the army in 1916 suffering from shell shock. Patrick O'Sullivan was also wounded in a gas attack during the First World War. He fought with the Anti-Treaty IRA during the Civil War and was wounded ten days after his brother was executed.^{[citation needed]} Shortly before that, he crossed over to England to participate in an attempt to rescue Dunne and his brother.

 

In 1923, John O'Sullivan tried to have the remains of the two men released in order that they could have a proper burial. However, it was only after the abolition of hanging that the law was changed and Patrick O'Sullivan, with the assistance of the Irish Republican National Graves Association, was able to arrange for the bodies of Joseph O'Sullivan and Reginald Dunne to be sent to Ireland for burial.

 

In 1967, after some political and diplomatic debate by the British and Irish governments, the British Government allowed the bodies of Dunne and O'Sullivan to be exhumed. They were subsequently reburied in Deans Grange Cemetery, County Dublin, Ireland.^{[citation needed]}

 

 

 

[The Inspector]

Hi,

Reginald William Dunn, Pte. 11479 Irish Guards, b.1898 Woolwich, London hanged 10.8.1922 Wandsworth Prison. Only son of Robert Dunn (Army Pensioner 1911 census) 90 Lealand Rd., Stamford Hill,Middlesex.SWB No. 378,994. Enlisted 6.9.16.Disch.15.7.18.

Joseph O'Sullivan, L/Cpl 3954,251479 3rd London Regt. Wounded at 3rd Battle of Ypres. Lost his right leg below the knee. SWB No. 427,872. Enlisted 25.1.15 Disch.10.7.18. 

Public Trees on Ancestry/Photos.

Regards Barry

Edited 29 January , 2020 by The Inspector

[corisande]

The Times report of the trial gives

 

Which ties in with Medal Roll and SWB date

 

 

 

So it would appear that the Munster connection is a bit of a red herring, in that if he ever did enlist  with RMF, he fairlt quickly transferred to London Regt.

 

And it is with London Regt that he lost his leg

 

He left France from the Medal Roll on 21 Aug 1917. so had been wounded and taken to Hospital in France some days before that - although the 3rd London War diary is available - click - without narrowing down the date of his wounding, it is not possible to say when or where it happened. (3rd London had 196 men wounded that month)

 

As with much that is written these days, a lot of the information on Joseph O'Sullivan is merely cut and paste (and Irish history is particularly subject to "biased" cut and paste) . So to find out about what happened to O'Sullivan will require going back to Original Records

 

 

Edited 29 January , 2020 by corisande

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting, thank you both for posting.  I’d realised that quite a lot was known about men responsible for such an infamous murder/execution, but had thought the OP wanted as much detail as possible about both the men’s military service, rather than just Sullivan’s loss of a leg.  He would have been able to specifically ‘list for’ the Munsters at the central recruiting office, London, which from memory was very close to Scotland Yard, but was probably transferred at whichever infantry depot he reported to.  The 3rd London’s were also fusiliers of course, having long been affiliated with the RF.
 

It seems that less is known about Dunn’s time in the Army, or about his family.  It appears that his father must have been a career soldier so one wonders how he felt about his son, or whether he too was a Republican (it also suggests that Dunn grew up as a barracks lad, who would have seen at close quarters the life of a soldier, assuming that his mother was married to his father and ‘on the strength’, i.e. endorsed by the regiment).  It would be interesting to learn which regiment, and my guess would be the Irish Guards too, but with service in a different  regiment before 1900.
 

I read that Dunn was an arts graduate of some kind with an Alma Mater in London, and fellow students who remembered him as a quiet man.  One wonders how he became radicalised and what experiences he might have had in the Irish Guards, although even then that regiment had many English born men in it, albeit most were of Irish extraction, from Liverpool and other large industrial cities.  I imagine that only any descendants of both men might be able to throw more light on the men’s service and the whys and wherefores of all that happened. 

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I imagine that only any descendants of both men might be able to throw more light on the men’s service and the whys and wherefores of all that happened. 

 

That, I think is the nub of it

 

What we can say from the records is with Joseph O'Sullivan

 

1. 1915 Jan 25. Enlisted (presumably) with Munster Fusiliers. I cannot find any evidence of his being with RMF

2. 1915 Aug 26. Posted to France with 3rd London

3. 1917 Aug 21. Left France (presumably after his leg wound) . The war diary exists but will not give any individuals details

4. 1918 Jul 10 Discharged , wounds

 

His London Regt no of 3954 is a clue to when he arrived at 3 London. Can anyone with more knowledge of numbers say when this would have been issued

[corisande]

 

 

And for anyone wanting more background on the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, the OP, who is an Irish Times  journalist, has written a very fair summary of the background to the deed, and the political fallout, in the Irish Times

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-ordered-the-assassination-that-started-the-civil-war-in-ireland-1.3492199

 

I would urge anyone interested to read that article.  The events both before and after the assassination are much more complex than most imagine

 

And Dunne and O'Sullivan were probably involved in the murder of Vincent Fovargue the year before - which is when I became interested in them originally - my notes on Fovargue

 

If you read the mountains of stuff that has been written about the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, it is the war service of both  Dunne and O'Sullivan that is skipped over, other than to record the details given in  their (somewhat brief - but that is another story) trial . I feeling is that is (all) the OP wants but he will eventually return to the thread and clarify.

 

 

[rolt968]

14 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

 

And for anyone wanting more background on the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, the OP, who is an Irish Times  journalist, has written a very fair summary of the background to the deed, and the political fallout, in the Irish Times

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-ordered-the-assassination-that-started-the-civil-war-in-ireland-1.3492199

 

I would urge anyone interested to read that article.  The events both before and after the assassination are much more complex than most imagine

 

And Dunne and O'Sullivan were probably involved in the murder of Vincent Fovargue the year before - which is when I became interested in them originally - my notes on Fovargue

 

If you read the mountains of stuff that has been written about the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, it is the war service of both  Dunne and O'Sullivan that is skipped over, other than to record the details given in  their (somewhat brief - but that is another story) trial . I feeling is that is (all) the OP wants but he will eventually return to the thread and clarify.

 

 

Thank you for the link. I had always found the date of Sir Henry Wilson's death strange.

RM

[clk]

Hi,

 

39 minutes ago, corisande said:

What we can say from the records is with Joseph O'Sullivan

 

1. 1915 Jan 25. Enlisted (presumably) with Munster Fusiliers. I cannot find any evidence of his being with RMF

2. 1915 Aug 26. Posted to France with 3rd London

3. 1917 Aug 21. Left France (presumably after his leg wound) . The war diary exists but will not give any individuals details

4. 1918 Jul 10 Discharged , wounds

 

His London Regt no of 3954 is a clue to when he arrived at 3 London. Can anyone with more knowledge of numbers say when this would have been issued

 

Papers exist for a couple of near number 3/London men that bracket his 3954/251479 numbers:

 

3934 Kent - renumbered to 251470. Enlisted 16.3.1915

3951 Cook - transferred before renumbering. Enlisted 17.3.1915

3954/251479

3958 Smith - discharged before renumbering. Enlisted 19.3.1915

3973 Giblet - renumbered to 251490. Enlisted 22.3.1915

 

Regards

Chris

[corisande]

4 minutes ago, clk said:

3934 Kent - renumbered to 251470. Enlisted 16.3.1915

3951 Cook - transferred before renumbering. Enlisted 17.3.1915

3954/251479

3958 Smith - discharged before renumbering. Enlisted 19.3.1915

3973 Giblet - renumbered to 251490. Enlisted 22.3.1915

 

 Thanks for that.

 

Can we therefore conclude that he

Enlisted 1915 Jan 25 (probably with RMF)

Transferred to 3rd London about 16 to 19 Mar 1915 (plus or minus a few days perhaps)

[FROGSMILE]

On 29/01/2020 at 11:10, corisande said:

 

 

And for anyone wanting more background on the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, the OP, who is an Irish Times  journalist, has written a very fair summary of the background to the deed, and the political fallout, in the Irish Times

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-ordered-the-assassination-that-started-the-civil-war-in-ireland-1.3492199

 

I would urge anyone interested to read that article.  The events both before and after the assassination are much more complex than most imagine

 

And Dunne and O'Sullivan were probably involved in the murder of Vincent Fovargue the year before - which is when I became interested in them originally - my notes on Fovargue

 

If you read the mountains of stuff that has been written about the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, it is the war service of both  Dunne and O'Sullivan that is skipped over, other than to record the details given in  their (somewhat brief - but that is another story) trial . I feeling is that is (all) the OP wants but he will eventually return to the thread and clarify.

 

 

Thank you for the links, I had read the first one when searching the story last evening and found it to be both compelling and intriguing in equal measure.  I had not read about Vincent Fovargue before, and found that interesting too.  The more I read, the more that the story draws me in. There is no doubt in my mind that both, Sullivan and Dunne had been brutalised by the war (as so many had been) and I hope that it might be possible to learn more.  Does anyone know if Sullivan’s military record was among those burned in the Blitz?  Certainly the Irish Guard's record of Dunne must still be in existence, as their (Guards) records depository was not bombed.

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ronan McGreevy]

• Folks, I am flabbergasted though not surprised at the knowledge and the attention to detail all of you have shown to my original request. I really appreciate it and your recommendations have given me plenty of food for thought and further research. Thank you all very much. 
•  

[Ronan McGreevy]

10 hours ago, corisande said:

Thank you for your kind comments. Their WW1 service is indeed overlooked. That's why I have come on to this forum. 

 

 

And for anyone wanting more background on the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, the OP, who is an Irish Times  journalist, has written a very fair summary of the background to the deed, and the political fallout, in the Irish Times

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-ordered-the-assassination-that-started-the-civil-war-in-ireland-1.3492199

 

I would urge anyone interested to read that article.  The events both before and after the assassination are much more complex than most imagine

 

And Dunne and O'Sullivan were probably involved in the murder of Vincent Fovargue the year before - which is when I became interested in them originally - my notes on Fovargue

 

If you read the mountains of stuff that has been written about the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, it is the war service of both  Dunne and O'Sullivan that is skipped over, other than to record the details given in  their (somewhat brief - but that is another story) trial . I feeling is that is (all) the OP wants but he will eventually return to the thread and clarify.

 

 

 

[David Filsell]

A strange  and fascinating incident. Whatever else the judgements on Henry Wilson, the great intriguer, I have always admired his spirit in taking a sword out when faced by gunmen, and also for travelling in a tube train in "full fig" A new biography of the man  - who claimed to be the ugliest man in the British Army, is shortly to be published.

Edited 30 January , 2020 by David Filsell

[Jervis]

As regards point 2 you maybe interested in this Book or the book review itself. 

 

I assume the “radicalisation” of elements of the Irish community in Britain mirrors that of Ireland itself in the 1914-1919 period. 

 

It is interesting to note, Michael Collins was recruited to the IRA (or more specifically IRB) in 1909 while living and working in London. Originally he was involved in organising Irish sporting activities before moving into organising  revolutionary activities. He  returned to Ireland in 1916 to avoid conscription and partake in the Easter rebellion. He may or may not have taken a similar path if he had lived in Ireland, but It is pretty clear he got his introduction to revolution & radicalisation whilst living in London. 
 

Jervis

[Guest]

On 31/01/2020 at 20:45, Jervis said:

 

 

   My post removed by me  MJT

Edited 15 February , 2020 by Guest

[Jervis]

Unexpectedly came across the grave of both men at the weekend. 

[corisande]

As I understand it both men were hanged for Wilson's murder at Wandsworth Prison on 10 August 1922 and buried within the prison grounds. This was the normal prictice, and Casement was likewise buried in the prison grounds and later his body taken back to Ireland

 

In 1967, Dunne and O'Sullivan were reburied in Deans Gate Cemetery, Dublin

 

  

[museumtom]

Deans Grange?

[Jervis]

43 minutes ago, corisande said:

As I understand it both men were hanged for Wilson's murder at Wandsworth Prison on 10 August 1922 and buried within the prison grounds. This was the normal prictice, and Casement was likewise buried in the prison grounds and later his body taken back to Ireland

 

In 1967, Dunne and O'Sullivan were reburied in Deans Gate Cemetery, Dublin

 

  

Yes. Agreed, but significant to note Casement got an official state ceremony  and re-internment in in Glasnevin cemetery along side other prominent Republicans. I could be wrong and maybe papers from the time will show - but Dunn & O’Sullivan don’t seem to have same official state recognition or acceptance. Which I assume is indicative of the ambiguity of their actions. 

12 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Deans Grange?

Yes. Deansgrange

Edited 24 August , 2020 by Jervis

[corisande]

Not Glasnevin, that is an interesting nuance that I had not thought about.

 

What I do know is that there was not a lot to be brought back to re-enter. Hanged men were buried in quicklime, and there was very little of his body left. I believe wat was intered in Dublin was mainly earth

[kildaremark]

Interesting that there is no WFA pension card for O'Sullivan although there is a Military Archives file for his father's request for a pension - including details of his elderly father running out on the street in 1939 fearing an air raid and just wanting enough money to return home to Bantry Bay - looks like he got a gratuity payment of £112 but don't think he got home.

 

Interestingly, from the file, it looks like his son Patrick O'Sullivan was working on something to do with the assassination in 1953.

 

Mark

Edited 25 August , 2020 by kildaremark

[FROGSMILE]

There’s still so much to learn about Dunne and O’Sullivan I feel, and I find myself wondering what happened to their families.  Might they have remained in London, or like so many taken the opportunity to emigrate to the Old Commonwealth (?).  It seems that O’Sullivans father remained at least, and so I suppose that his other progeny were nearby.  
As someone who spent his early years not far from Woolwich, it’s struck me that as working class men both the assassins would have sounded much like the Londoners that I attended school with.  It was before so-called Estuary English became the norm, and was a timeworn form of cockney as I recall it.  One can thus imagine how the two men might have sounded in speech, which makes the events and strong Irish Republican radicalisation seem ostensibly to be so incongruous, especially for Dunne, who had after all been raised in barracks.  I’m still holding out hope that someone will seek out the Irish Guards record of Dunne (and possibly even his father), as his service record very likely still exists given that it was not bombed.

 

Despite their humble background and large families, both men were well educated by the standards of the time and the hand written statement by Dunne, unsuccessfully intended to be read out at the trial, is I think especially revealing.
 

 

Edited 25 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

Thanks for sharing those images. Very interesting. 

Does O'Sullivan have a black eye in the image? I read the Police needed to protect both men from the mob. 

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Jervis