It won't happen to me

[Gary Samson]

Ah, I've just seen Joan's earlier post on this thread.

Gary

[bcerha]

Quick update on sources (went home for lunch and checked the bookshelf!)

The author of "Anatomy of Courage" was Lord Moran.

The Infantry Bn in John Baynes excellent "Morale" was the 2nd Bn Scottish Rifles and he is most particularly concerned with their part in and effect of the 1915 Battle of Neuve Chapelle. Excellent book - well worth a good read.

Hope this helps

Regards

David

[Gary Samson]

Nevermind, Gary. A senior moment perhaps?

No, just an oversight, Robbie.

One other line of psychological research that seeks to understand something of this notion of invulnerability are studies that address 'unrealistic optimism', currently popular in health psychology. Results from the majority of studies have demonstrated that an optimistic bias about susceptibility to harm (ie a tendency to claim that one is less at risk than others) is often introduced when individuals extrapolate from their past experience to estimate their future vulnerability. According to this research, raw recruits would regard themselves less at risk than old sweats who had experienced frontline action and its effects. Optimistic biases also increase with the perceived preventability of a hazard (ie if something can be done to minimise or eliminate the threat the potential for harm is lessened) and decrease with perceived frequency and personal experience (ie the more often soldiers are on the receiving end of an artillery bombardment, over which they have no control or potential for response, the more vulnerable they will feel).

Gary

[Desmond7]

'Unrealistic optimism' and 'Optimistic Bias' ... just the terms I was hunting for.

Excellent wording!!

des

They sure beat 'It won't happen to me' syndrome!

[Robert Dunlop]

It is also important to recognise another significant effect of long-term exposure to battle-related stress. The sense of 'I don't care anymore' - a fatalism if you will which is quite different from denial. The affect is flattened and the individual will expose themselves to risk

Diarrhoea as a reaction to stress is usually an acute reaction. Men did lose control of both bowels and urine in their first fight. I think I mentioned once before that you sometimes see men talk about constipation as a bigger problem. Some soldiers would curl up under gunfire, as if the body was slowing down rather than speeding up.

Robert

[Jon Miller]

One book I read quoted an RAF bomber pilot as saying that it was best to assume that you were going to die and to get on with it. A sort of dead man walking. Phil B

I recall a scene from Band of Brothers where a soldier was told that he would not be able to fully cope with the war situations he was now in until he had completely resigned himself to being without hope of getting out alive.

[Robert Dunlop]

Good point, Jon. The situation I describe is worse than that. Soldiers reach a point where they do not 'get on with it'.

Robert

[Kathie]

Interesting topic because we all apply this protection mechanism in our own lives. For me, its I wont have a heart attack even though Im overweight and live a stressful life.

Thoughts and quesitons:

1. I have soldier spent 10 days in Rouen hospital with diarrhoea. I this stress or a big??

2. Robbies comment about the slow drip. And her reference to its similar to domestic abuse. I have been involved in a criminal trial involving a woman who killed her husband, charged with murder, lot and lots of evidence of physical and other abuse, well documented medically, police, magistrates and etc. And the psychologist have all told me that the wait and the inbetween can be worse than the episode or incident of abuse. At least you know the time has arrived, what is happening and if you can cope. The anxiety about will it or wont it, how can I stop it etc is apparently worse.

3. If Ihad been at the Somme, after the whistle had been blown and I had climbed out the trench I would immediately have laid down, perhaps rolled on my side and looked very dead for a long long time. Were others on the lookout for people like me and would they push me on??? What would happen to me??

Kathie

[marina]

Where?

It's very interesting

I had the downloaded a lot of this sort of the information awhile ago for a problem at my son's school.

I finally found the sitename

http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm

Liam

That was an interesting set of articles, Larneman. As a teacher myself, I am stunned by the total failure of those who decide policies to recognise the impact of bullying and deal with it.

Marina

[PhilB]

Clark Gable`s biography described his few missions (about 6?) flown as a commissioned air gunner with the USAAF over Europe. He apparently required so much drink beforehand that he almost had to be poured into the gun turret. I mention this not to denigrate Mr Gable (He needn`t have been there at all) but to give an idea of the stress involved and to draw a parallel with the WW1 troops going over the top, most of whom would have had a good shot of rum to help them through the ordeal.

Kathie`s point about waiting being stressful is a good one. Like the man who couldn`t sleep for waiting for the second shoe to drop upstairs! Once you are sensitized to a threat you await its recurrence with unavoidable dread. And going over the top must have been very sensitizing! I don`t think she`d get away with shamming dead for long, though. I think friendly fire would soon become a hazard! Phil B

[JohnYork]

As a mental health nurse I would suggest that the information taken about bullying is rather over simplfied. The term breakdown means so many different things to different people that its best avoided altogether (It is certainly not a psychiatric diagnosis either as a "stress breakdown" or "mental breakdown"). Equally the idea that every soldier could stand a certain amount of stress before "breaking" is misplaced. The reality is that everybody's brain is unique as are their experiences in their life. Previous life exerience is a significant factor in the way they deal with stress.

There have been many studies looking at what contributes to an individuals ability to cope in stressful situations. Some of these theories have been touched upon earlier. In particular I would agree that the ability to have even the smallest amount of ability to alter your own circumstances is the most significant. This would account for the study of americans in vietnam where the officers had more control because they were actively planning. At a more subtle level it also applies to the virtues of a good commanding officer. As they may allow the men under their command to feel they have a small but significant amount of control within the unit. Units who have greater commeraderie and bonding would also be significant as it gave soldiers a feeling of a place to belong.

As a general rule stress felt over a longer period i.e. whilst doing "daily grind" will in most cases take a longer time to abate than acute stress i.e. going over the top which may be more dramatic but will usually abate more quickly.

There are of course exceptions to this I'm talking about most people most of the time There are people who failed to cope without ever going near the front and those who managed despite repeated and extreme stress to endure. Perhaps the only constant is my admiration for everyone who took part and the debt we owe to them

[PhilB]

Perhaps the only constant is my admiration for everyone who took part and the debt we owe to them

What always surprised me about the many WW1 veterans I`ve talked to is that they were just ordinary blokes. (A chap who`d been through the Somme and Ypres shouldn`t look like ordinary men like me!) On second thoughts, they were different - I never met any who were difficult, boastful or loud. I wonder whether it was the age they were brought up in or the effects of the war. Phil B

[jdajd]

I think that an important place to look for "answers" to these questions would be the works of Dr. Rivers, who treated Sassoon at Craiglockhart. Admittedly I do not know much other than what I saw/read in the movie/book Regeneration, but I think Rivers subscribed to the drip drip theory or more specifically the straw that broke the camels back. A person undergoes trauma on an hourly basis each time a little of their mental protection is worn down then something, possibly totally inoccuous will set them off. My two cents are that their are two types the drip drip and the sudden traumatic event that sets a seemingly normal person off. Again using Regeneration, there is a scene when the soldiers are talking about another patient who could no longer eat. One of the soldiers tells him that it had something to do with the corpes that littered the field, which I assume most soldiers eventually got used to. What set this particular soldier off was being hurled by a shell face first into the corpse. This is a traumatic event that would in all likelihood strip away in one fell swoop and psychological protections we have.

[larneman]

What always surprised me about the many WW1 veterans I`ve talked to is that they were just ordinary blokes. (A chap who`d been through the Somme and Ypres shouldn`t look like ordinary men like me!)

One thing I have not seen here is "class". Comparing studies of US in Vietnam with the class ridden soldiers of WW1 is wrong. As a soldier you did not matter, you took your orders and did what you were told. You were with your friends and the officers were with their class. If an officer and gentleman cracked he was whisked away. Bad show or Bad form. A soldier was shot or imprisoned or given some form of hard punishment. You had little or no rights. You were raised to do what you were told. You knew your place in society. Look at some of the "VC" winners. The Bushmills Quiggs was looking for his officer. He worked for the officer's family pre-war. No disrepect to Quiggs as he brought back and saved many wounded during his search. I have forgot the other irish example.

I think that this attitude had a lot to do with their way of just trying to make it to the end of the war.

How many British soldiers mutinied during WW1. How many mutinied in the other nations. I think they all mutinied after the end of the war when a lot refused to accept the class society again and tried to give it the boot.

I could be wrong but why do we need some much medicine for mental health problems thes days.

Liam

[PhilB]

Liam, are you saying class is good or bad? Or a bit of both?

That`s an interesting case of the servant going out to rescue his "master". Whilst not wishing to minimize this man`s bravery, he might have had a vested interest in bringing his "master" back as it could possibly ensure employment and the use of a tied cottage for him and his family on his return to civvy life. Might he have gone out to bring in some other officer or private? Phil B

[larneman]

are you saying class is good or bad? Or a bit of both?

None of the above. It is just the fact that you had 2 classes of people and they knew no other system. Would that change how you react to your "hopeless" situation. Being constantly bombed or standing in knee deep water, wading through mud, dead all around you. Just obeying, trusting, believing in your officers.

As to my man Quigg of Bushmills, he promised to look after the master's son. Strange thing to do in the middle of a battle, 2 July 1916 on the Somme. Would it really be that you were worried about the cottage, job or was it just what you did for your betters.?

I doubt if a modern soldier would accept the conditions they lived in, survived in and died in. Why do I think this, because he is also a thinking man and feels as equel as any other man.

Just my point of view as I hate it when people try to place modern idea's on a situation that existed 90 years. I think you have get in touch with that time frame and look up to future and not down to the past.

Liam

[Robert Dunlop]

One thing I have not seen here is "class". Comparing studies of US in Vietnam with the class ridden soldiers of WW1 is wrong. As a soldier you did not matter, you took your orders and did what you were told. You were with your friends and the officers were with their class.

Liam

I am not sure to what extent this applied in the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand contingents. 'Class' distinctions were much less apparent I think. Not to say that some people in these countries did not aspire to behave and be thought of as 'upper class' or even 'aristocracy'. But by comparison to the Mother Country, such aspirations and behaviours were often regarded as laughable. I think that professionals were well-respected but it was not uncommon for people from professional backgrounds to serve in the infantry and not become officers. I have seen evidence in the New Zealand Division that the more egalitarian nature of society encouraged greater communication to and from the PBI.

This is another example from General Furse, written after the tragic events that befell the South African Brigade in Delville Wood:

'1. The Division has done well in the recent fighting. We must now, while our several experiences are fresh in our memories, dig out and clarify by close discussion the lessons of the fighting so that we may do even better in the future.

2. The first thing to do is to get down to facts, as far as that is possible. Until we know what was tried and what were the conditions, and whether it succeeded or failed, and, if the latter, how it failed, we cannot hope to discover the best way of dealing with similar situations in the future.

3. I want brigadiers, both artillery and infantry, CRE and all commanding officers to organise this investigation at once in their several units, and I append a few headings as a guide. It does not pretend to be an exhaustive list of subjects.

I want everybody to be absolutely frank in this investigation. It is not a matter of fault-finding, but of fact-finding. I also want everyone, however junior in rank, to be permitted to express his opinion if he has any suggestions to offer as to possible means of improving our methods.'

This sort of approach was not confined to the Dominion forces. There were significant changes in the British Army as the war went on. Sir Frank Fox, in his book 'G.H.Q.' devoted a whole chapter to musings on the "New Army". The perceived distinctions between the Regular and the Temporary junior officers was a ready source of discussion 'at dinner' in British GHQ:

'There was H_____, for instance, who, in those early years of the war, was an unsparing critic of the "New Army" which was, he used to say then, slovenly and makeshift sort of show and could not salute properly, and suffered, and always would suffer, from the "non-military mind".

The non-military mind, according to him, was an affliction which was born in one, like original sin, and could only be exorcised by going to a Military Academy and becoming a Regular Soldier.

The officers of the New Armies came from five sources:-

1. A few officers spared from units at the Front and devoting themselves to the dull but glorious duty of helping the new men. These were usually first class. [no bias evident here ]

2. "Dug-outs" who having completed his soldier's work, volunteered back to service in the New Army. Lots of him were at GHQ.

3. Promoted NCOs from the Regular Force

4. Recruited officers from the Universities and the public schools. Almost invariably they had a sense of leadership.

5. Recruited officers from the bulk of the community; in many cases very good; sometimes just passing muster; in a few cases distinctly poor.'

Fox goes on to talk about the intense disdain that Regular officers felt towards the newly appointed Temporary officers. He links with a detailed description of the 'tradition of the officer clan'. He goes on:

'But all that in 1918 was an old tale and mostly a forgotten tale. At GHQ there was no scorn left for the Temporary who had done his fair share of fighting.

"Very much more interesting show, the Army is now," confessed one Regular Colonel to me. "Talk in Mess now is talk. You've no idea how solemn and stuffy a Regular Mess could be, in India or in a garrison town."'

Robert

[larneman]

I am not sure to what extent this applied in the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand contingents. 'Class' distinctions were much less apparent I think.

Robert, I was many refering to the New Army and the later conscripts from what you lovingly refer to as the mother country.

You have a piece about the officers of the New Army and the old. That is typical of that period of history. When do you read about Tommy Atkins, when he is dead or won a medal, not very many medals of course. Looking at the medal lists etc. I always noticed that the majority were officers.

I believe that the men in WW1 were stronger, mentally and otherwise than our present generation. If you knew your place in society and accepted it you could endure more.

Why were the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand contingents more succesful in a lot of battles or actions in no mansland. Was it their lack of the class stigma, better officiers, officers more like themselfs. Just did not give a dam, allowed to show leadership, were lead from the front?

Again this is all theory and I am glad that I will never have to do what any of them did.

I found your piece a very interesting read and a bit of an eye opener on how the "betters" looked at other not so equal "betters" Good feeding ground for a RED Revolution..

Liam

[PhilB]

I have several examples of upper/middle class officers who write very sincere letters home to families in which their respect for the qualities of their working class charges really shines through.

Surely that`s only right and proper, Des? Should we expect less?

From what you say, do you think a soldier`s actions in saving his "master" might have been promoted by other considerations than pure bravery? (This does not imply that the soldier was not brave, of course). Phil B

[Desmond7]

From today's perspective it is of course what we would expect. And in the vast majority of cases I do believe there was a tremendous affinity between officers and men - especially in 'Pals' btns. where often the officers were well known to the men pre-war. But the social/class divisions were understandably carried on in army service.

But we are talking in 2005 .... back in 14-18 I suggest that the attitudes were governed by social position in general society. Thus the letter I refer to ( is, to my mind, the exception rather than the rule.

If we can use such letters as part of the 'evidence' for examining social structures etc within the 'New Army' , I think it is also very important to say that, in the main, these letters were written as part of the normal routine rather than as a deep seated need to express true feelings of friendship.

Many of the letters may have expressed comradely words but, I suspect, 'stock sentences' were included in the overwhelming majority of cases when oficers were writing to 'working class' families.

Re Quigg ... I think he went out looking for his officer for no other reason than he knew the man well, had grown up around his estate in Bushmills and wished to bring the young lad in. I don't think for one moment that he considered himself obliged through 'master and servant' relationship to perform his search. I just think he was 'doing the decent'.

[larneman]

Very interesting, Des. I use the word "class" for the want of a better word.

In this quote

Thus they were imbued pre-war with the sense that bread /roof is more important than any concepts of equality/esteem. Translated to the army ... it was easier/wiser to get on with the job than develop a reputation for a barrack room lawyer?

you write what I am trying to get across. If people were so conditioned then you could accept a lot. That is the point I am trying to make.

That the world was changing away from the battlefield can be seen worldwide from about early 1917 onwards.

Again you and I have interests in the 36th and I do not know if they would be representive for those "Pals" that joined the New Army. The men in the RIR belonging to 36th div came from a para military organisation. Had trained together and later served under a lot of the same officers and nco's as in their UVF days.

They were not there because they thought it might be fun but because they were asked.

Sgt Quigg went looking for his officer from his hometown of Bushmills. I cannot remember if he served under him in the UVF. What I have never been able to discover who were the men he carried back each of the 6 or 7 times he went searching. Were they RIR, mates or just other soldiers.

I must make sure that there is no misunderstanding I have the highest regard for the actions of this brave man. It is easy to sit and try to second guess his reasons.

I assume he felt that it was his duty. A reason I heard a lot in my youth from WW1 and WW2 soldiers.

Lastly, last night I was watching on Belgium television a documentary on the Concentration camps and the planning up to them being build. A polish jewish woman who survived was describing her home town of Lods in Poland. The area they lived in was poor and rundown. When Jews from Germany were moved there they looked down their nose at the other Jews that lived there. She went on to tell as the area was filled with more and more Jewish people the conditions got even worse. She then made the point that the German Jews could not adapted and died first while those born and raised there just adapted as they were used to poor conditions and bad treatment.

Maybe if you were used to having little and almost no rights, that could also help in surviving the horrors of the front.

Liam

[Desmond7]

One more interesting point about pre-war employment and the way social attitudes were conditioned:-

In Ballymena pre-war there were two big mills .. the Braidwater (the biggie) and The Phoenix (next best).

There is a well known story which has also been told as if it was a 'funny anecdote' about how one Braidwater worker went cap in hand to his manager to explain why his daughter had taken a position at the Phoenix.

Basically, the poor man said: "I'm really sorry about this .. her mother has tried beating her and locking her in her room. But she is determined to go to the Phoenix. You know me sir and you know we are a BRAIDWATER Family ...."

As I say, some people look at this and belive it's a funny old story about the bad old days. To me it stinks. The man felt he might be looked down upon because his daughter had exercised freedom of choice!

Some in my hometown were aghast when the Braidwater was knocked down ... others who knew of the old days remarked they were glas it was gone because it was a 'monument to slavery'.

Having said all that .. no Linen Mills .. no Ballymena .. I'm sure it was the same the lenghth and breadth of the country.

Here is the hallowed place ...

[Desmond7]

And we'd better start another topic!!!

This one is developing nicely but it's lost in the original context!

Enjoying the chat.

Des

[larneman]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Quigg

Robert Quigg was an Irish recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

He was 31 years old, and a Rifleman in the 12th Bn., The Royal Irish Rifles, British Army during the First World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 1 July 1916, at Hamel, France, Rifleman Quigg advanced to the assault with his platoon three times. Early next morning hearing a rumour that his platoon officer was lying wounded, he went out seven times to look for him under heavy shell and machine-gun fire, each time bringing back a wounded man. The last man he dragged in on a waterproof sheet from within a few yards of the enemy's wire. He was engaged for seven hours in this most gallant work and finally was so exhausted that he had to give it up.

He later achieved the rank of Sergeant.

His Victoria Cross is displayed at the The Royal Ulster Rifles Museum (Belfast, Northern Ireland).

CO ANTRIM

Name: Robert, QUIGG

Rank: Sergeant

Force: 12th Bn The Royal Irish Rifles

VC: won France, 1 July 1916

London Gaz: 9 September 1916

Born: Giant's Causeway, Co Antrim, 4 June 1874

Died: 14 May 1955, Ballycastle, Co Antrim

Grave: Billy Protestant Churchyard, Co Antrim

Location of VC: Royal Ulster Rifles Museum, Belfast

Remarks None

http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/stewart/nireland.htm

Reference

Irish Winners of the Victoria Cross (Richard Doherty & David Truesdale, 2000)

Monuments To Courage (David Harvey, 1999)

The Register of the Victoria Cross (This England, 1997)

VCs of the First World War - The Somme (Gerald Gliddon, 1994)

Photo submitted by Martin Hornby - (Gallaher Cigarette Cards)