8th Leeds rifles cap badge info

[Soldierboy]

Can you tell me anything about this cap badge , are there fakes ?

and why are the 7th battalion badges less common 

[Soldierboy]

A 7th battalion badge ,  why are some badges designed with a slider and others with a pin going through two lugs ?

[FROGSMILE]

I had been typing out a longer answer to your query, but as someone moved the post to this section of the forum my reply was lost.  Briefly then, genuine badges had vertical shanks (aka ‘sliders’) rather than loops.  Unfortunately the badge is one often reproduced, probably using an original die subsequently sold as surplus by the war department.  You might wish to post a similar query here: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1

 

NB.  The vertical sliders were initially designed for the Field Service Cap, and then made longer for the Brodrick forage cap.  It was eventually shortened again for the drab and coloured forage caps. 
Superior quality badges for officers were generally made either, with two spiked blades to pierce the cap, or two loops with a cotter pin.

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I had been typing out a longer answer to your query, but as someone moved the post to this section of the forum my reply was lost.  Briefly then, genuine badges had vertical shanks (aka ‘sliders’) rather than loops.  Unfortunately the badge is one often reproduced, probably using an original die subsequently sold as surplus by the war department.  You might wish to post a similar query here: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1

 

NB.  The vertical sliders were initially designed for the Field Service Cap, and then made longer for the Brodrick forage cap.  It was eventually shortened again for the drab and coloured forage caps. 
Superior quality badges for officers were generally made either with two spiked blades to pierce the cap, or two loops with a cotter pin.

Hi , sorry it was me that moved it , as I thought it was in the wrong category ,  so the one I have got is a copy ,you are saying because it hasn’t got a slider , but it looks so real , why would anyone go to the trouble , there not that expensive generaly to buy 

[Soldierboy]

The photo of the 7th battalion has a slider , does that make it genuine 

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

Hi , sorry it was me that moved it , as I thought it was in the wrong category ,  so the one I have got is a copy ,you are saying because it hasn’t got a slider , but it looks so real , why would anyone go to the trouble , there not that expensive generaly to buy 

It’s been reproduced using an original die.  The dies are sold off when surplus to war department requirements.  The purchaser then sells badges to collectors.  There are also factories in Pakistan and Bangladesh that reproduce the badges using a variety of methods.

Genuine badges were invariably fitted with sliders as I’ve explained.

 

27 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

The photo of the 7th battalion has a slider , does that make it genuine 

Quite possibly, although even badges with vertical sliders are being reproduced, and some manufacturers even go to the lengths of artificially ageing the badges. You must remember that WW1 badges are over a hundred years old. Many have gone to collectors in other countries and so seeing the opportunity for profit, there is now a market for makers of reproduced badges.

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

Thanks for clearing that up , the 7th battalion badge is on eBay , was thinking of trying to buy it , I am a little gutted I have a copy but didn’t pay too much for it 

[Soldierboy]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s been reproduced using an original die.  The dies are sold off when surplus to war department requirements.  The purchaser then sells badges to collectors.  There are also factories in Pakistan and Bangladesh that reproduce the badges using a variety of methods.

Genuine badges were fitted with sliders as I’ve explained.

Thanks for your information , will make sure they have sliders from now on 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

Thanks for clearing that up , the 7th battalion badge is on eBay , was thinking of trying to buy it , I am a little gutted I have a copy but didn’t pay too much for it 

I can only recommend that you join the badge forum whose link I posted.  If a badge is cheap I’m afraid there’s usually a reason for it.  Since the mass marketing of military memorabilia on the internet the days of getting genuine badges cheaply are pretty much gone.  If you want genuine badges I would urge you to collect collar badges, as so far there is no market to reproduce them.  Although bear in mind that they only started to be worn by ranks below commissioned officer in 1924.

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can only recommend that you join the badge forum whose link I posted.  If the badge is cheap I’m afraid there’s a reason for it.  Since mass marketing of military memorabilia on the internet the days of getting genuine badges cheaply are pretty much gone.  If you want genuine badges I would urge you to collect collar badges as so far there is no market to reproduce them.  Although bear in mind that they only started to be worn by ranks below commissioned officer in 1924.

Yes copies are spoiling everything these days , and it’s getting harder to tell the difference 

Edited 22 January , 2020 by Soldierboy

[Soldierboy]

I have a set of shoulder titles ,  yorkshire light infantry , I have notice a size difference in the yorkshire badges any idea why 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

Yes copies are spoiling everything these days , and it’s getting harder to tell the difference 

If it’s important to you to have a genuine badge from the period you will get advice from experienced collectors on the forum.  Personally I find that people get obsessive about it.  You’d do better to collect collar badges, or even regimental buttons if authenticity is that important to you. 
Unfortunately the 7th and 8th West York’s badges have been reproduced in very large numbers.

 

4 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

I have a set of shoulder titles ,  yorkshire light infantry , I have notice a size difference in the yorkshire badges any idea why 

 

Smaller titles are often a pattern used by officers on tropical uniform (khaki drill).

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

If it’s important to you to have a genuine badge from the period you will get advice from experienced collectors on the forum.  Personally I find that people get obsessive about it.  You’d do better to collect collar badges, or even regimental buttons if authenticity is that important to you. 

I just like having the real thing , unless it is far too expensive for me to buy ,  but the copy’s are as good as the real thing to look at , thanks for your advice 

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

I just like having the real thing , unless it is far too expensive for me to buy ,  but the copy’s are as good as the real thing to look at , thanks for your advice 

Many copies are made using original dies, so the badges will look good.  The 7th and 8th Badges were made blackened, in plain brass, and even in white metal.  Many have lugs rather than slides, but those issued to soldiers were generally fitted with sliders, as was laid down in the contract.  For regular regiments the contracts were set by the war department, but until 1916, the contracts for Territorial Force units like the 7th and 8th West York’s were set by “County Territorial Associations”.  After 1916 even TF badges were contracted by the war department and that might explain differences like sliders and loops/lugs.

Edited 23 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Many copies are made using original dies, so the badges will look good.  The 7th and 8th Badges were made blackened, in plain brass, and even in white metal.  Many have lugs rather than slides, but those issued to soldiers were generally fitted with sliders, as was laid down in the contract.  For regular regiments the contracts were set by the war department, but until 1916, the contracts for Territorial Force units like the 7th and 8th West York’s were set by “County Territorial Associations”.  After 1916 even TF badges were contracted by the war department and that might explain differences like sliders and loops/lugs.

I still feel bewildered, just looking on eBay , and I can’t tell what’s genuine and a copy , there’s lots that look similar to the one I bought , and they can sell for around £40 so not cheap , I think I paid under £10 for mine , so I pressume it’s a copy , until told otherwise 

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

I still feel bewildered, just looking on eBay , and I can’t tell what’s genuine and a copy , there’s lots that look similar to the one I bought , and they can sell for around £40 so not cheap , I think I paid under £10 for mine , so I pressume it’s a copy , until told otherwise 

The 7th and 8th West Yorks badges are particularly common as high quality, crisply detailed reproductions, almost certainly because the original dies were sold off and are being used for mass reproduction.  Some dealers sell them cheaply, others the opposite.

Edited 23 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Soldierboy]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 7th and 8th West Yorks badges are particularly common as high quality, crisply detailed reproductions, almost certainly because the original dies were sold off and are being used for mass reproduction.  Some dealers sell them cheaply, others the opposite.

Hi , What’s your opinion on this badge , another copy perhaps

[FROGSMILE]

It looks genuine enough to me and has the correct North and South loops and cotter pin.  It is a glengarry badge.

Before 1881 the badges for the glengarry cap were styled with numbers to reflect the precedence of the regiment concerned, and when the retitling took place in 1881, and the numbers were discontinued, the dies for the old badges were sold off.  An entrepreneur named FOX bought a great many of the dies and traded on the affection for the old regiments by using the dies to make and sell badges for collectors and veterans, and these quickly became famous.  They were among the first examples of commercialised militaria reproduction.

Edited 24 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner Hall]

I'm currently looking for a decent original or repro ASC cap badge.  I haunt antique (Dad always called these" junk shops " btw.) wherever i go.  I have to sift through hundreds of 'South Notts Hussars, 17th lancers and Fife and Forar yeomanry cap badges. Yet,  I never see a badge from any of the corps and regiments which were home to the vast majority of those who served.  I suspect that some badges are more marketable (thus faked) than others?

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Gunner Hall

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gunner Hall said:

I suspect that some badges are more marketable (thus faked) than others?

Yes, exactly that.  I’ve seen reproductions of WW2 RASC, but for some reason none of the ASC.  Your best bet would be to attend a militaria ‘fair’ (they do still exist), and also put a ‘search’ on eBay in its ‘British militaria collectibles’ (use those words) section for ASC badge.

 

1.  Chatham Militaria Fair - 9th Feb 2020.

 

2.  GHQ Militaria Fair Farnham -16th Feb 2020.

 

3.  Preston Arms & Militaria Fair - 1st March 2020.

 

 

Edited 24 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner Hall]

Thanks for the dates, Frogsmile,  i don't mind a repro, but it has to look/ feel  "right"  So I'll avoid ebay!.  BTW, Despite being Yorkshire Regiment / Green Howard, York and Lancs free zone, -  if any one wants a full set of shoulder titles from every battalion of the London regiment - These are are available from a shop in York City centre. You don't have to hurry,  they have lots of them.........

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Gunner Hall said:

Thanks for the dates, Frogsmile,  i don't mind a repro, but it has to look/ feel  "right"  So I'll avoid ebay!.  BTW, Despite being Yorkshire Regiment / Green Howard, York and Lancs free zone, -  if any one wants a full set of shoulder titles from every battalion of the London regiment - These are are available from a shop in York City centre. You don't have to hurry,  they have lots of them.........

While I do understand your comment regarding eBay, it’s only fair to say that increasingly, genuine dealers and their wares are increasingly being advertised on eBay and not all insignia there is reproduction.

[Soldierboy]

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks genuine enough to me and has the correct North and South loops and cotter pin.  It is a glengarry badge.

Before 1881 the badges for the glengarry cap were styled with numbers to reflect the precedence of the regiment concerned, and when the retitling took place in 1881, and the numbers were discontinued, the dies for the old badges were sold off.  An entrepreneur named FOX bought a great many of the dies and traded on the affection for the old regiments by using the dies to make and sell badges for collectors and veterans, and these quickly became famous.  They were among the first examples of commercialised militaria reproduction.

Thanks for your information frogsmile

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Soldierboy said:

Thanks for your information frogsmile

I’m glad to help.  The ‘FOX restrikes’, as they became known, are now themselves so old (over a Century, and so antiques) that only an expert dealer (and there aren’t that many that I would describe as expert) would be able to differentiate them from a genuine, issued badge.

Edited 24 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[tonydb]

Here is an 8th btn badge of mine, after some discussion on the Badge Forum is considered as a genuine badge.

Hope this helps Tony.