TNA - changes to document ordering

[QUEX]

Announced here:

 

https://nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/changes-to-document-ordering/

 

Not convinced this is progress, certainly not for the way I use Kew  

[Terry_Reeves]

It is certainly interesting. There has been a noticeable shortage of staff over the last 12 months so I wonder if this is part of the reason. This is also intriguing:  "This will allow us to maintain the collection appropriately so that we can ensure its preservation for future generations of researchers." I  understand the need for maintenance, but I can't really see how it fits in.

 

TR

[QUEX]

This was actually announced to the Users' Group back in Dec

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/uag-2019-12-03-minutes.pdf

 

I don't see the problem this is meant to solve ...

 

 

[Colin W Taylor]

I'm not a fan of this and I hope they don't implement it in the long term. I get there infrequently enough that I'd sooner order as many documents as I can within the time available. 

 

Ho hum...

[MaureenE]

There is also mention of it in a WW2 Talk Forum topic "National Archives - Kew Tips?" including concern about the impact it would have on those who provide a paid service copying documents.

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/national-archives-kew-tips.11433/page-37#post-859794

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

[Chris_Baker]

I view this as a retrograde and unwelcome development. It won't be long, I am sure, before it is only possible to order in advance.

 

Added: The subject as discussed at the User Advisory Group on 3 December. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/uag-2019-12-03-minutes.pdf Note item 2.1.

 

 

Edited 8 January , 2020 by Chris_Baker

[David26]

This is bad news indeed. Living some way away, I have to plan any visits carefully, book time off work and usually go for 2 or 3 days, aiming to get through as many documents as I can during a visit. With officers' service records having yet to be digitised, often the only way to find the man you're after is to look at 2 or 3 files to find which Lt Smith is your man. It usually only takes a minute or two looking at a file to work out if he's the one you're after or not. Restricting readers to a maximum of 24 files in a day will curb such research. 

[corisande]

3 hours ago, David26 said:

This is bad news indeed. Living some way away, I have to plan any visits carefully, book time off work and usually go for 2 or 3 days, aiming to get through as many documents as I can during a visit. With officers' service records having yet to be digitised, often the only way to find the man you're after is to look at 2 or 3 files to find which Lt Smith is your man. It usually only takes a minute or two looking at a file to work out if he's the one you're after or not. Restricting readers to a maximum of 24 files in a day will curb such research. 

 

Exactly my position. This is a retograde step which will curb research - perhaps that is what they want !

[DavidOwen]

Hmmm are they trying to force out independent researchers in order to take in funds from their own ridiculously expensive copying service? Or am I bring cynical?

[QUEX]

From Twitter -

 

 

If true, utterly depressing and with a suggestion that there has been an element of deceit in TNA's communications.  But I'm sure they will continue to find the resources for a mime in residence on a 6 month contract, or a seminar on interpreting WO95s through the medium of interpretive dance, and various other bits of non-core flummery .....

 

 

 

 

 

[Hedley Malloch]

On Twitter,  I too have seen the idea that it is all due to staff cuts. This makes sense - it's only a few years ago that Monday opening at TNA  was chopped. One can see similar cost-saving changes in other WW1 archives. This is austerity in action - and why should the WW1 research community by exempted from it?

[QUEX]

The effects of this go far beyond the 'WW1 research community', part of which is actually reasonably well served by digitised records for ORs and units, leaving aside the fact the indexing of WO95s by Ancestry is a disgrace. It will hit those researching officers as anything other than individuals, higher echelon HQs, policy, etc.  It's perhaps a reflection of how things have changed in the last 20 years that this isn't provoking howls of outrage from the readers of this forum.

 

But these changes are seriously bad news for researchers in any discipline who need to maximise their return on the investment of travelling to Kew, and probably even worse for overseas researchers.  I can also see them being bad news for paid researchers whose daily earning potential is effectively capped.  

 

Austerity? For sure.  But TNA seem to spend a lot of money on non-core activities that might offer alternative savings. 

 

I find myself in the odd position of actually looking forwards to my next trip to the US national archives after years of comparing it unfavourably to Kew.  Very different institutions, very different environments, but NARA does at least let you churn through the boxes.

 

 

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Austerity in action - and yet they can afford to sponsor one of their managers for his Phd, strange that. I would put another twist on it, yet another Government body mismanaged.

7pm closing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, no files allowed to be ordered after 4pm the same as the days where closing times are 5pm.

Edited 9 March , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[Colin W Taylor]

It's similar to relatively recent changes with the document reading room at the IWM. The docs are held off-site and you can only view the documents you order in advance with no ability to order more on the day. The ability to conduct more speculative research, which can prove interesting and rewarding, is harder to do under constraints over document ordering. It's also hard to follow up 'leads' on the day. If I could afford to spend weeks at a time at Kew or the IWM it might not be as bad but time is short and highly productive archive visits might be a thing of the past.

 

C

[Hedley Malloch]

20 hours ago, QUEX said:

Austerity? For sure.  But TNA seem to spend a lot of money on non-core activities that might offer alternative savings. 

e.g.?

 

20 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Austerity in action - and yet they can afford to sponsor one of their managers for his Phd, strange that.

What is 'strange' about it.? If TNA are to offer a service with fewer staff, then those people will have to be smarter. Investing in human resources whilst cutting numbers makes sense.

 

For sure, the proposed restrictions on document ordering will curb serendipitous research. On the other hand TNA is a publicly-owned, service organisation who havs had to live with severe cuts to their budget. I would imagine most of their budget goes on labour costs, so cutting costs without affecting numbers of employees is not possible. If I was running TNA in this environment I would be turning cost centres into revenue pools (Ancestry, FMP), and cutting existing costs (self-service) and subcontracting. I imagine that the latter would be difficult because of the highly specialised nature of their services. I don't think that there are many 'non-core' jobs there.

 

We've had 10 years of this and I suspect that there is much more to come. Ultimately it is a question for all of us. If you want a full range of services on demand, 7 days a week, 18/24, then are you prepared to pay for it either by a subscription service with separate reading rooms for TNA Gold Ticket holders only, or through higher taxes? Over to us.

Edited 10 March , 2020 by Hedley Malloch

[QUEX]

3 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

e.g.?

For starters, no more of this sort of thing - https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/artist-in-residence/ .   10% cut in management grades in next FY and 3% each FY for the next 4 years - savings to fund posts concerned with core activities, which I consider to be  the selection, preservation and production on site or digitally of records, plus limited advisory work with departments and other archives (their engagement with departments has become 'thinner' in recent years) and anything required to meet their statutory role.  Anything outside these core functions to be subject to ruthless VFM examination.

 

3 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

If you want a full range of services on demand, 7 days a week, 18/24, then are you prepared to pay for it either by a subscription service with separate reading rooms for TNA Gold Ticket holders only, or through higher taxes? Over to us.

 

I don't want 18/24/7 access.  But I do want time spent at Kew to be as productive as possible, and to achieve that I would be open to paying a subscription.  

[Chris_Baker]

TNA website: "We employ more than 500 staff". I doubt that includes any outsourced services such as cleaning and catering. I do wonder what that figure would be if a proper zero-based assessment was done. That is, determining the minimum needed for delivering the basic services and no frills. But provision of the service seems to be taking a lower priority that building up income generation from corporate events, entertainment and so on. There may be merit in that but it's not of great value to researchers.

Edited 10 March , 2020 by Chris_Baker

[Terry_Reeves]

You are not going to get anything done by moaning on here. What is required is direct action by users. TNA is a non-ministerial organisation but has a parent department,  The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. The minister responsible is Oliver Dowdon CBE MP, his address is here:

 

Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport
100 Parliament Street
London
SW1A 2BQ
United Kingdom

 

You can also contact the CEO and Keeper of The National Archives Mr Jeff James, the address is here:

 

The National Archives

Kew, Richmond, Surrey

TW9 4DU.

 

You also have recourse through your local MP.

 

If you feel strongly enough, do something about it. Don't do emails which are easy to palm off,  letters on the other hand are much more effective as they land on someones desk.

 

Don't moan - do something about it if you want change. 

 

TR

Edited 12 March , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[gmac101]

17 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

You are not going to get anything done by moaning on here. What is required is direct action by users. TNA is a non-ministerial organisation but has a parent department,  The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. The minister responsible is Oliver Dowdon CBE MP, his address is here:

 

Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport
100 Parliament Street
London
SW1A 2BQ
United Kingdom

 

You can also contact the CEO and Keeper of The National Archives Mr Jeff James, the address is here:

 

The National Archives

Kew, Richmond, Surrey

TW9 4DU.

 

You also have recourse through your local MP.

 

If you feel strongly enough, do something about it. Don't do emails which are easy to palm off,  letters on the other hand are much more effective as they land on someones desk.

 

Don't moan - do something about it if you want change. 

 

TR

 

Having some knowledge of ministers offices work it is useful if you can tie your complaint into some statement a senior member of the government has made or a stated policy of the government and show how the decision of TNA contradicts this.   Has the PM, Education Minister Culture minister talked about increasing an understanding of British history in the nation? bringing British history to a new audience.  You may not agree with the governments approach or the intention of the statement but that doesn't necessarily matter, what you need is a contradiction if you can find it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

14 minutes ago, gmac101 said:

 

Having some knowledge of ministers offices work it is useful if you can tie your complaint into some statement a senior member of the government has made or a stated policy of the government and show how the decision of TNA contradicts this.   Has the PM, Education Minister Culture minister talked about increasing an understanding of British history in the nation? bringing British history to a new audience.  You may not agree with the governments approach or the intention of the statement but that doesn't necessarily matter, what you need is a contradiction if you can find it.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks gmac. Another one for the armoury.

 

TR