Who relieved the Howe 11/12 May 1915?

[michaeldr]

AB J T Caldwell's diary (Len Seller's magazine RND, No.23) records that he and his mate acted as guides bringing up the relief that night (11th/12th May),

and he names the new unit as the “4^th Lancashire and Manchesters”

 

It wasn't the 4^th Lancs or the 4^th Manchesters, but who was it?

 

Looking at Westlake, the following units are possible candidates:

 

7^th Lancs – To front line Krithia Road sector (11^th)

8^th Lancs – Ditto

7th Manchesters – Took over firing and support lines – Krithia Nullah sector during night (11^th)

8^th Manchesters – To forward area – Krithia Nullah sector (11^th)

 

or even perhaps, 5^th Lancs – Moved forward to reserve positions – Krithia Nullah (11^th)

 

Can anyone confirm which battalion relieved the Howe that night?

 

Thanks in advance for any help with this

Michael

[alantwo]

Hi Michael

 

The 127th Infantry Brigade HQ War Diary indicates that on 11th May they relieved the New Zealand Brigade. The 1/6th Manchester War Diary indicates they relieved the Canterbury Battalion, plus another Battalion that I cannot decipher, though it might be Worcester. In the 1/8th Manchester War Diary they state that they relieved the Otago Battalion and 1st Essex (sq 176 R7) albeit they have to lie out in the open during the night whilst the trenches are vacated.

 

In the 29th Division, 88th Infantry Brigade HQ War Diary there is a reference on 2nd May that the Howe and Hood Battalions came up to support the Brigade. There is also a reference on the 4th May that the Royal Naval Division took over the French trenches immediately to the Brigade's right. On 11th May the War Diary confirms that the Essex and Worcester Battalions are relieved.

 

I haven't found anything yet on who relieved the Howe Battalion, but I hope this helps at least to take out some of the options.

 

Kind regards

Alan

 

[horatio2]

The RND were relieved by 42nd Division - that is well-documented - but I cannot pin down the reliefs of individual battalions.

[michaeldr]

 

Many thanks to Alan and H2 for looking at this and for providing the info above

 

From the RND's point of view this was a very unsatisfactory time and, for this particular researcher I have to admit, it is very confusing.

Some of the RM and Naval battalions (e.g. my grandfather's Nelson Batt.) were up at Anzac, while others were at Helles, and the last of the Division's battalions were still at sea on their way to the Aegean.

Meanwhile, General Paris was given command of something called the Composite Brigade which was made up of the Drake Battalion, Plymouth Battalion RMLI and 1^st Lancashire Fusiliers. [This is Incomplete: See H2's next post]

 

At this same time the RND's 2^nd Brigade was on loan for a few days to the French under General D'Amade and only reverted to General Paris on the 10^th May.

Len Sellers in his book 'The Hood Battalion' gives this force as being made up of the Hood, the Anson and 'A' Company of Howe

[NB: it is unclear to me at the moment if, as the battle progressed, this single company contribution was expanded to include the whole of the Howe Battalion]

 

The 2^nd Brigade RND component commenced by advancing up the Achi Baba Nullah (6^th May).

Two days later, on the 8^th, they seem to have ended the 2^nd Krithia battle a little further to the right -

“They [the French] tried once more, and captured a strongpoint later known as the Bouchet Redoubt. Hood and Howe Battalions advanced behind the French in support until 7pm, when all units were ordered to dig in.”

 

Up to this time the Helles front was not yet a continuous trench line, but as the RND transferred back to Gen Paris' command on the 10^th, then the 2^nd Brigade must have taken up position to the left of the French and to the right of what up to then had been Paris' Composite Brigade. Exactly where in this front line the Howe were I have yet to specifically identify.

 

Following H2's advice I have had another look at Westlake and as regards the 42^nd Division I have the following notes.

 

125^th (Lancs Fusiliers) Brigade

1/5 Lancs – landed 6^th May & in support of 6^th Lancs

1/6 Lancs - 6^th May Gully Spur

1/7 Lancs – landed 6^th May & in support of 6^th Lancs

1/8 Lancs – landed 6^th May forward either side of Gully Ravine

 

126^th Brigade

1/4 East Lancs – 8pm on 11^th May to Brown House Sector

1/5 East Lancs - 11^th May Achi Baba Nullah

1/9 Manchesters – landed 9^th May to bivouacs then Redoubt Line on 21st

1/10 Manchesters – land 9^th May, resve. & instruct. from 29^th Div at Achi Baba Nullah firing line

 

127^th Brigade

1/5 Manchesters – Land 4pm 6th May. 7pm 7th Krithia Bridge. 8th May support attack by RND. 11th relieved NZ in Krithia Nullah

1/6 Manchesters – Land 6^th. 7pm 7th west of Krithia Bridge. 8.30pm 8^th May support line Krithia Road. 11^th May relieved 4^th Worcs, Krithia Nullah

1/7 Manchesters – landed 7^th May. To Firing & Support lines Krithia Nullah night of 11^th May

1/8 Manchesters – landed 7^th May. Support positions Krithia Road on 8^th. Forward area Krithia Nullah on 11^th May

 

 

Re 1/5 Manchesters – Land 4pm 6th May. 7pm 7th Krithia Bridge. 8th May support attack by RND.

New Question:- Does anyone have any information as to which part of the RND, the Composite Brigade or the 2^nd Brigade, was supported in their attack by the 1/5^th Manchesters on this occasion?

 

Thanks again for your interest and any help which you can give here

Michael

Edited 5 January , 2020 by michaeldr

[horatio2]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Len Sellers in his book 'The Hood Battalion' gives this force as being made up of the Hood, the Anson and 'A' Company of Howe

Jerrold's "RND" records ...one platoon of 'A' Company Howe, under Lt Cdr Waller..." I am not sure which is correct but a single platoon led by a Lt Cdr....????

 

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

New Question:- Does anyone have any information as to which part of the RND, the Composite Brigade or the 2^nd Brigade, was supported in their attack by the 1/5^th Manchesters on this occasion?

My notes have: "8th May ... In order to secure the Centre, three battalions of the Manchester Brigade were sent to occupy the old lines of trenches in rear of the Composite Brigade and in support." 

 

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

General Paris was given command of something called the Composite Brigade which was made up of the Drake Battalion, Plymouth Battalion RMLI and 1^st Lancashire Fusiliers.

He was actuall GOC of the Composite Division. This comprised 2nd Australian Bde + the New Zealand Bde + a Composite Bde. The Composite Bde also included: 2 x Field Coys RNDE;  Motor maxim Squadron (8 guns);  2nd Field Ambulance RND (personnel only).

 

I have the impression (could be wrong) that the main advance of the Composite Bde on 6/7/8 May was led by Plymouth Bn. because, late in the day, 1st LF Bn was ordered forward to fill a gap on the Left (between the Comp Bde and the NZ Bde) and Drake Bn to fill a gap on the right (between Comp Bde and 2nd (Naval) Bde).

 

We really are a bit short of hard facts on this battle. So much shuffling of battalions. V. frustrating!

[michaeldr]

 

H2
 

That clarification and information is a big help

Many thanks indeed!

 

8 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

We really are a bit short of hard facts on this battle. So much shuffling of battalions. V. frustrating!

Absolutely

 

regards

Michael

 

[horatio2]

To answer Michael's original question "Who relieved the Howe 11/12 May 1915?". I have yet to be persuaded that the bulk of Howe Division was in the line during the 2nd Battle of Krithia, apart from Waller's 'A' Coy with the French. I assume that the 2nd Bde battalions and the Howe Coy were relieved by French units when General d'Amade handed them back to General Paris on 10 May. There is nothing to suggest that these battalions of the 2nd Bde were then  slotted into the Comp Div/Comp Bde OOB. The rest of Howe Bn does not seem to have participated in the battle - perhaps supported by the fact that there were only a dozen HOWE k.i.a. and d.o.w. - and therefore they did not require a normal fiull battalion relief.

 

 

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

I assume that the 2nd Bde battalions and the Howe Coy were relieved by French units when General d'Amade handed them back to General Paris on 10 May.

 

That relief could in fact have been as early as the morning of 8th May

I now see in the diary of F S Kelly* (Hood Battalion, 2nd Naval Brigade)

"... relieved soon after daybreak and found our way back to the part of the old firing line 1,000 yards back, that Hood had occupied on the nights of 4 and 5 May. There we found the remainder of the battalion and counted up losses."

His entry for 10^th May is headed “Supporting trench, 300 yards in rear of firing line , left of White House”

That for the 11^th May appears to be the same place, and mentions they were

“relieved by some Territorials at 10.00 pm and moved back to the old firing line 1,000 yards in the rear.”

 

H2 – thanks again for your help with this

Michael

 

* Kelly's War - the Great War diary of Frederick Kelly 1914-1916 - edited by Jon Cooksey & Graham McKechnie, Blink Publishing, 2015, ISBN 978-1-910536-04-9

[michaeldr]

DISREGARD THIS [see H2's following posts]

 

Another of Caldwell's diary entries at this time is also of interest; he mentions the death and burial of WALKER, William, Petty Officer, RNVR, Clyde 2/104

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3055266/walker,-william/

However, Caldwell has the date not as 2^nd May, but rather 7^th May

“A shell burst just on the edge of the trench and killed our commander Mr. Walker. I helped dig his grave under fire all the time. A shell dropped a foot away from the grave's edge and made a hole big enough for another. Luckily we had just finished or we would have all been killed.”

 

Walker's burial is also mentioned by Padre Foster;

“this brave officer (Lt Col Quilter) was laid to rest on the morning of May 7^th, shortly after, I buried William Walker of the Howe Battalion, in the same place, both funerals took place in a dangerous spot, under a hail of shrapnel, but we managed to get through without casualty”

 

Lt Col. Quilter died 6^th May 1915

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/604996/quilter,-john-arnold-cuthbert/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/604996/quilter,-john-arnold-cuthbert/#&gid=null&pid=1

 

In this case it seems reasonable to doubt the date 2^nd May for Walker's death.

If such an event would have occurred on 2^nd May, then there surely would have been an opportunity to carry out his burial. (On 2^nd May Caldwell carried back wounded and then joined his company who were positioned on the beach.) If Walker had died in his own trench on 2^nd May, then a delay of five days before his burial seems unnecessary. Quilter was buried the day after he was killed and both his and Walker's burials took place in the middle of a battle.

 

There are 351 burial in Skew Bridge which are unidentified (https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/66700/skew-bridge-cemetery/) Since the next burial to Walker (Quilter) was identified, then it seems possible that Walker was also re-interred at Skew Bridge as well, but simply not recognised at that time.

Edited 6 January , 2020 by michaeldr

[horatio2]

Some confusion here, I think, between Petty Officer William WALKER, Clyde 2/104 k.i.a. 2 May and OC 'A' Coy Acting Lt Cdr Thomas WALLER d.o.w. 7 May. The two officers (QUILTER and WALLER) are both buried at Skew Bridge. PO WALKER has no known grave and is on the Helles Memorial.

[horatio2]

N.B. Rev Foster buried Lt WALLER. not WALKER, (I have his book in front of me.) Len Sellers mis-quoted Foster in the Caldwell article in "RND". Caldwell's diary transciption is probably the reason for the errors.

[michaeldr]

 

1 minute ago, horatio2 said:

Len Sellers mis-quoted Foster in the Caldwell article in "RND". Caldwell's diary transciption is probably the reason for the errors.

 

H2

Many thanks for that clarification

(the offending pages in RND, No.23, are 2331 & 2339)

 

Michael

[horatio2]

The precise quotation from Foster reads:  "Shortly after, I buried Lieutenant Waller, of Howe Battalion, in the same place" N.B. no mention of "William".