William Richard Cox, 7959, 2nd Batt Royal Munster Fusiliers

[Sarahc5]

Hello all

I am wondering if anyone could please give me more information on the soldier or battalion above please.   William R Cox was born in 1887 in Kent. 

I found this but can't seem to find much more info...

 

''2nd Battalion landed in France 10 days after the declaration of war and stayed on the Western Front throughout the conflict. It suffered heavy casualties at Etreux in September 1914, where all its officers were killed or wounded and its chaplain, Father Francis Gleeson, had to take over command of the battalion. It was badly mauled again during the German Spring Offensive in April 1918.''

I am trying to find out information before 30th of December to give to someone as a 60th birthday present.  

I found a 1911 census and then a medal roll card which is attached.  I can't read most of the writing on there! 

Many thanks

Sarah 

[Alisonmallen62]

R. muns. Fus. Royal Munster Fusiliers

P of War prisoner of war

14 star retd (returned) found 

CRV166.26.1.22 Auths WS/1/21861

14 star reissued to records IV562A 16/3/22 WS/1/21861Min 2 

C&R 117B 1VB782 26/7/49

 

sounds like his medal may have been lost and returned by someone 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

14 star retd (returned) found 

There is another 14 star MIC for W Cox 7959 - so perhaps 'found' is the finding of the temporary card

But doesn't take us much further.

Can't find him on ICRC PoW

??

[Alisonmallen62]

Yes I wondered about that too but on another card some years ago I noted virtually the same and discovered a returned medal which found its way back to the owner.  However P of W may be a good way to go with this.  You could also try www.rmfa92.org

Edited 29 December , 2019 by Alisonmallen62

[Sarahc5]

Thank you both for your help.  

I have found the duplicate card so I think the notes must apply to that.  I also couldn't find anything about him being a Prisoner of War.  

Am I correct in thinking his battalion were sent to France? 

 

Best wishes

 

Sarah

[Matlock1418]

The Long, Long Trail [related to GWF] have the following:

ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : in Malplaquet Barracks at Aldershot. Under command of 1st (Guards) Brigade in 1st Division.
14 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre.
14 September 1914 : after suffering heavy casualties at Etreux, left Division and became Army Troops.
9 November 1914 : transferred to 3rd Brigade in 1st Division.
30 May 1916 : absorbed troops from disbanded 9th Bn.
3 February 1918 : transferred to 48th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division.
13-14 April: absorbed the 19th Entrenching Battalion.
19 April 1918 : reduced to cadre, surplus troops going to 1st Bn.
31 May 1918 : cadre transferred to 94th Brigade in 31st Division.
6 June 1918 : rebuilt by receiving troops from disbanded 6th Bn. Ten days later left Division and moved to Lines of Communication.
15 July 1918 : transferred to 150th Brigade in 50th (Northumbrian) Division

 

I suspect that the difference between dates = 13 August 1914 on his MIC is his his departure from the UK and 14 August 1914 the landing in Le Havre, France = there often appears such a day difference into ToW amongst the many MIC I have looked at.

[Hedley Malloch]

13 hours ago, Sarahc5 said:

Hello all
...
''2nd Battalion landed in France 10 days after the declaration of war and stayed on the Western Front throughout the conflict. It suffered heavy casualties at Etreux in September 1914, where all its officers were killed or wounded and its chaplain, Father Francis Gleeson, had to take over command of the battalion. It was badly mauled again during the German Spring Offensive in April 1918.'' ...

Many thanks

Sarah 

 

 

Some corrections: the battle of Etreux was fought on 27 August 1914 and not in September of that year. Not all of its officers were killed or wounded: five survived. Father Francis Gleeson was Chaplain to the Battalion but never its commanding officer.

If you want to know more about the battalion's history, then you could look at 'History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers' by Captain S. McCance: 1821 to 1922, reprinted by The Naval and Military Press.

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Sarahc5 said:

I am trying to find out information before 30th of December to give to someone as a 60th birthday present.

Here's some more basic infoinfo; please forgive me if some terms are not self explanatory:

 

Daily Casualty lists -WOUNDED
Cox W, Pte 7959 RMF, DailyList 19/2/15, Report Rec'd 31/12/14
Cox W, Pte 7959 RMF 1st Bn  Daily List 25/5/15
Cox W, Pte 7959 RMF  Daily List 10/8/17 (NoK Paddington W)

 

Hospital Admissions No 2 General Hospital
Cox W, Pte 7959 RMF 2nd Bn, A Company, aged 28, 10 yrs Service, Gunshot Wound Head, admitted 25/12/14, to sick convoy 28/12/14 Hospital Ship Asturias

 

Hospital Admissions- Operations performed at No 2 Gen Hospital
Cox W, Pte 7959 RMF 2nd Bn,  Original injury 21/12/14, operated 25/12/14, Incision, Surgeon I H Holroyd (?)

 

So a suggested timeline is now:

 

1886/7 Born   Deal,Kent

1904 enlisted aged 18 (?)

1911 census  Jellalabad Military Barracks, South Tidworth, Hants , 2nd Bn RMF,

13/8/14 To France with 2nd Bn RMF

21/12/14  first injured GSW Head with A Company 2 RMF

25/12/14 Operated on head at 2 GH

28/12/14 To UK on Hospital Ship Asturias

1915 ? posted to 1st Bn RMF

April 1915 Wounded with 1st Bn RMF who landed Gallipoli 25/4/15

July 1917 Wounded 3rd time with RMF

 

Possibly a PoW later in the War ?

 

An interesting history

 

[charlie962]

National Army Museum has Attestation Books for the Irish Regiments. you are very lucky to have William Cox's re-enlistment postwar in the Leinster Regt number 7179169; This means he should have a Service Record still held by the MoD Glasgow. A copy can be obtained on application (plus a GBP 30 fee)

 

In the meantime here is the link to those Attestation Ledgers which gives you all sorts of detail on family etc.

 

Charlie

 

PS note that he was born c April 1886 per the Ledger, he married Alice on 7/6/14, and had 4 children. He was Discharged in 1925.

Edited 29 December , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

William Cox appears in the 1939 Register for Uxbridge with his wife Alice and daughter Alice Eliza. He is shown as T/Postman. I note his DoB is recorded as 25/1/1887 so I suspect he fibbed a bit when originally joining the Army.

 

His death is recorded Q2 1970 Hillingdon, where his DoB is noted as 23/1/1887

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

One little bet more. From the Medal Roll we can see he started off abroad with 2nd RMF then with 1st RMF. This fits with what I've already posted above and tells us also that he remained with 1st RMF as long as he was overseas. He was transferred to the Class Z Reserve on 17/3/19

 

I can confirm that his Service Record is included in the list of MoD held files: "W R Cox 7179169 born 23/1/1887". there is an additional file ref of ADT000103093

 

charlie

[FROGSMILE]

There is a good chance of a pre-war photo of this man, albeit as part of a group.  2nd RMF had the entire battalion photographed in company and HQ groups whilst based at Jellalabad Barracks, Tidworth, Hants, in 1912.  The RMF Association seems to still have these photos, some of which have been posted on the rmfa website.

 

There is excellent information about the 2nd RMF’s action at Etreux here: https://www.britishbattles.com/first-world-war/battle-of-etreux/

 

There are some useful links available via the “combined Irish regiments” website: https://www.ciroca.org.uk/first-world-war-links/infantry-regiments-1914-18/royal-munster-fusiliers/

 

Mrs Rickard’s famous book tracing the early actions of 2nd RMF has been digitised and is available online here: https://archive.org/details/storyofmunstersa00rick/page/n6

 

Edited 29 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Sarahc5]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

So a suggested timeline is now:

 

1886/7 Born   Deal,Kent

1904 enlisted aged 18 (?)

1911 census  Jellalabad Military Barracks, South Tidworth, Hants , 2nd Bn RMF,

13/8/14 To France with 2nd Bn RMF

21/12/14  first injured GSW Head with A Company 2 RMF

25/12/14 Operated on head at 2 GH

28/12/14 To UK on Hospital Ship Asturias

1915 ? posted to 1st Bn RMF

April 1915 Wounded with 1st Bn RMF who landed Gallipoli 25/4/15

July 1917 Wounded 3rd time with RMF

 

Possibly a PoW later in the War ?

 

An interesting history

I agree - a very interesting history!  

Thank you so much for this, Charlie - it's a really useful timeline and I will be able to find a lot of information using it.   You really are very good at this!! 
I was reading about the 2nd Bn and they fought in Etreux when they first landed in France 13/8/1914.
https://www.britishbattles.com/first-world-war/battle-of-etreux/

I have also been able to find lots of information about the Jellalabad Barracks and the band.  Also the Hosptial Ship and 2 GH. 

 

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

 

 

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

National Army Museum has Attestation Books for the Irish Regiments. you are very lucky to have William Cox's re-enlistment postwar in the Leinster Regt number 7179169; This means he should have a Service Record still held by the MoD Glasgow. A copy can be obtained on application (plus a GBP 30 fee)

 

In the meantime here is the link to those Attestation Ledgers which gives you all sorts of detail on family etc.

 

Charlie

 

PS note that he was born c April 1886 per the Ledger, he married Alice on 7/6/14, and had 4 children. He was Discharged in 1925.

This is really useful as I had mistakenly given him an additional son born in 1913 so it has highlighed my mistake.  I won't be able to get the service records in time to give the present but I am really interested in this chap now and it will be a nice follow up.  He had a very varied service.

[Sarahc5]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is a good chance of a pre-war photo of this man, albeit as part of a group.  2nd RMF had the entire battalion photographed in company and HQ groups whilst based at Jellalabad Barracks, Tidworth, Hants, in 1912.  The RMF Association seems to still have these photos, some of which have been posted on the rmfa website.

Thank you for this.  I had a look on the website but obtaining membership seems a bit lengthly.  I found the photo you mentioned - a great find - thank you again. 

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Mrs Rickard’s famous book tracing the early actions of 2nd RMF has been digitised and is available online here: https://archive.org/details/storyofmunstersa00rick/page/n6

 

 

Great thread, thanks for sharing this Frogsmile. 

[Sarahc5]

'

Maybe this is where he was a PoW?

[Sarahc5]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is a good chance of a pre-war photo of this man, albeit as part of a group.  2nd RMF had the entire battalion photographed in company and HQ groups whilst based at Jellalabad Barracks, Tidworth, Hants, in 1912.  The RMF Association seems to still have these photos, some of which have been posted on the rmfa website.

 

There is excellent information about the 2nd RMF’s action at Etreux here: https://www.britishbattles.com/first-world-war/battle-of-etreux/

 

There are some useful links available via the “combined Irish regiments” website: https://www.ciroca.org.uk/first-world-war-links/infantry-regiments-1914-18/royal-munster-fusiliers/

 

Mrs Rickard’s famous book tracing the early actions of 2nd RMF has been digitised and is available online here: https://archive.org/details/storyofmunstersa00rick/page/n6

 

Wow.  I hadn't seen your edited comment.  What a brilliant find - thank you so much.  I found some books online but it wouldn't give me enough time to finish this by tomorrow.  

Thank you again.  Every time I post, I make a donation to the site to keep it up and running.  I will make another donation today in appreciation of everyone's help.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Sarahc5 said:

Thank you for this.  I had a look on the website but obtaining membership seems a bit lengthly.  I found the photo you mentioned - a great find - thank you again. 

I’m glad to help, the Royal Munster Fusiliers were a very fine regiment with a long and glorious history.

 

I realise that you won’t be able to collate everything by 30 December, but perhaps you can add to it.

It would be worth persevering with joining the rmfa website, it doesn’t usually take that long once your application is seen and approved by a moderator.

 

I enclose a favourite photo of mine of an RMF group shortly before the war (probably Tidworth 1912, but possibly Aldershot 1913).  
You can see at least two of the battalion’s complement of ‘Boys’ (aged 14-17) in the front two rows.

 

Edited 29 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Sarahc5]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help, the Royal Munster Fusiliers were a very fine regiment with a long and glorious history.

 

I realise that you won’t be able to collate everything by 30 December, but perhaps you can add to it.

It would be worth persevering with joining the rmfa website, it doesn’t usually take that long once your application is seen and approved by a moderator.

 

I enclose a favourite photo of mine of an RMF group shortly before the war (probably Tidworth 1912, but possibly Aldershot 1913).  
You can see at least two of the battalion’s complement of ‘Boys’ (aged 14-17) in the front two rows.

 

I came across this photo too.  The shortest guy at the back with the moustache has a serious likeness to the Grandson of the person I am researching.  Unlikely it's him but I will be interested to know what the rest of the family thinks! 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Sarahc5 said:

I came across this photo too.  The shortest guy at the back with the moustache has a serious likeness to the Grandson of the person I am researching.  Unlikely it's him but I will be interested to know what the rest of the family thinks! 

He appears to have led an extraordinary life with the RMF.  Wounded 3-times (it seems) at some of the regiment’s toughest actions.  Here is a rundown of 1st RMF’s landing in Gallipoli: https://gallipoli.rte.ie/people/regimental-diaries/royal-munster-fusiliers/

He apparently re-enlisted in the Royal Leinster Regiment after the war and it’s interesting that he chose another Irish Regiment.  Almost all the Southern Irish headquartered regiments were disbanded in 1922 and yet he was not discharged until 1925.  This suggests either, yet another transfer to see out the remainder of his colour service, or a final posting away from regimental duty at an all-arms duty station of some kind.  My guess would be the latter.  He would certainly have had some stories to tell.

Edited 29 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He apparently re-enlisted in the Royal Leinster Regiment

The Attestation book that I linked above has 'Section D' in red against his name.

 

I wasn't sure how to interpret this. Was he effectively transferred from Z Army Reserve to Active service then  to Section D Army Reserve and would this have been at the point of 1922 disbanding ?

 

The Service Record will no doubt clarify and I hope in 3 mths time when OP has received the file that she can enlighten us, please ?

 

Charlie

[Sarahc5]

On 30/12/2019 at 12:57, charlie962 said:

 

The Service Record will no doubt clarify and I hope in 3 mths time when OP has received the file that she can enlighten us, please ?

 

Hi Charlie, 

 

I certainly will.  Thanks again for everyone's help. 

[Sean Harrington]

On 29/12/2019 at 14:31, charlie962 said:

National Army Museum has Attestation Books for the Irish Regiments. you are very lucky to have William Cox's re-enlistment postwar in the Leinster Regt number 7179169; This means he should have a Service Record still held by the MoD Glasgow. A copy can be obtained on application (plus a GBP 30 fee)

 

In the meantime here is the link to those Attestation Ledgers which gives you all sorts of detail on family etc.

 

Charlie

 

PS note that he was born c April 1886 per the Ledger, he married Alice on 7/6/14, and had 4 children. He was Discharged in 1925.

A relation of mine is listed in the National Army Museum Attestation Book for Irish Regiments. 

Does this definitly mean that his service record is held by MoD Glasgow ? I had given up hope of finding his service record as it cannot be found through normal online resources ie Kew or Ancestry etc.

Sean

[Sarahc5]

1 minute ago, Sean Harrington said:

A relation of mine is listed in the National Army Museum Attestation Book for Irish Regiments. 

Does this definitly mean that his service record is held by MoD Glasgow ? I had given up hope of finding his service record as it cannot be found through normal online resources ie Kew or Ancestry etc.

Sean

Sadly not, many of the records were destroyed.  Well worth a try though. 

[charlie962]

20 minutes ago, Sean Harrington said:

A relation of mine is listed in the National Army Museum Attestation Book for Irish Regiments. 

Does this definitly mean that his service record is held by MoD Glasgow ? I had given up hope of finding his service record as it cannot be found through normal online resources ie Kew or Ancestry etc.

I presume you mean this entry

re-enlisted   28/2/19  7076010  Discharged 7/8/22

But I have looked at the Military Discharge Index 1920-71 on Ancestry and he's not listed. It is still worth asking MoD in case they have his file but just not indexed. But don't hold your breath.

 

Charlie