Redman Posted 18 December , 2019 Share Posted 18 December , 2019 Hi. my grandmother lived next door to a family named Saville before and after ww1. I have two photos with Ernest Saville on the back. one is a local studio pose in the U.K. The other taken somewhere in France of 5 soldiers. He and they wear the Crossed Machine gun cap badge and bandolier across their chests. He died in the war. just knowing these facts I went in search of him as part of the MGC. with no success. i found Ernest Saville on the CWGC website. He died 23/10/1918. He is listed as part of 13th battalion King Royal Rifle Corps. It is the correct Ernest Saville as his wife is in the cemetery book. His medal card only states he is in 13KRRC. And the details on the war Memorial in Loughton ESSEX state he enlisted in this regiment. 46747 is his only stated army number. can anyone shed any light on why there is no mention of MGC in his available documents. does the number 46747 have any significance? he is obviously a machine gunner before he left for France as the first photo shows him as such. kind regards dan redman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 18 December , 2019 Share Posted 18 December , 2019 47 minutes ago, Redman said: 46747 is his only stated army number. Can't shed any light on possible MGC so ??? but thanks to the Western Front Association / Ancestry (Fold3) there is a pension card for him 13th KRRC 46747 Rfn Widow: Louisa of Kerrowcroft, England Lane, Loughton, Ex [Think that is transcribed right but cards are a bit fuzzy today, due to a technical glitch, so also can't read what looks like a second initial] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 December , 2019 Share Posted 18 December , 2019 The significance of the number is that it denotes transfers from other units and the Training Reserve. These numbers in the KRRC run from 40873 - 61312. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 December , 2019 Share Posted 21 December , 2019 (edited) There is an Ernest Saville, 86574, Machine Gun Corps. MIC on Ancestry here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001373-02146 (free to view, but you may need to set up an account) How have you eliminated this soldier? How confident are you that the man you are seeking was the husband of L. E. Saville, of "Ferrocroft", England's Lane, Loughton This chap appears to have survived the war. Neither of these Ernest Savilles had entitlement to the Star, so both must have landed in France (or other theatre) after 1915. I'll see what I can find on 46747 Saville, 13/KRRC, Died 23/10/1918 aged 40 yrs. It would not be unusual for the machine gun section of an infantry battalion to be transferred to the MGC when the MGC as formed mid war. However the medal roll only has him serving in the KRRC ... Mark Edited 21 December , 2019 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 December , 2019 Share Posted 21 December , 2019 (edited) Soldiers Died in the Great War has 46747 Saville, Rfn Ernest, 13/KRRC as killed in action France & Flanders 23 Oct 1918. Born High Beach, Essex. Residing in Loughton, Essex. Enlisted at Hounslow, Middlesex. The 1918 KRRC Chronicle describes 13/KRRC in action on 23 Oct 1918 attacking NEUVILLE-EN-AVESNOIS, which is approx 17 miles E of CAMBRAI. Trench map ref 51A.X.25.d. The attack began at 10:00hrs and was successful. 40 Germans were taken prisoner. No casualty figures given however. That should be in the 13/KRRC war diary, but I have to sign off for now. Mark Edited 21 December , 2019 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman Posted 21 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2019 Thankyou everyone for your insights. Mark.yes definitely the Ernest Saville in 13KRRC The other Ernest Saville in machine gun corps survived where as mine did not. My initial thoughts were that he was either a territorial or on the reserve so enlisted early on, which would tie in with the 13KRRC battalion being formed and sent to France quite early. I have no evidence he was on the reserve. He was in Loughton / High beech on all the previous census. So no military service. But He could have served for seven years between any of the census though. The Machine gunner aspect I assume meant he was sent to Grantham for training with the battalion machine gun company. This company did not join the 13KRRC until 1916, so he would no get the 1915 star. then I really make it up, to get him dying as a Rifleman at the end of the war. I suggest he is wounded or disabled out of the MG company of the 13KRRC, only to return as a rifleman as the army was desperate to fill any role in the closing period of the war. ??????????? Any input???? my other query is he is stated as enlisting at Hounslow.??????? Why Hounslow. from the web Hounslow is the HQ for the 1/8th Middlesex territorial battalion. The boundaries for Middlesex were literally step away from his area of residence. Which meant he could easily have beeen in the Middlesex Territorials and so was called to enlist in Hounslow.??? where regimental depotsHQs used by other units as the war progressed for enlistment??? not sure how I get him out of the Middlesex into the MGC and then the 13KRRC, as his only reference on file is to the 13KRRC? any other insights please dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 December , 2019 Share Posted 21 December , 2019 A person enlisting could express a preference for the regiment in which he wished to serve wherever he enlisted, so don't read anything into Hounslow. It is certainly unsafe to put in the Middlesex Regt ONLY because he enlisted at Hounslow. You've misunderstood the origins of the MGC particularly the difference between the battalion MG section and the brigade MG company. Have a read of this on the mother site: LLT: Machine Gun Corps in the First World War The 13th Battalion, KRRC, would have had a MG Section from formation in 1914, but they were KRRC riflemen belonging to the regiment. 13/KRRC were in 111 Brigade, 37th Division. The 111 Bde MG Company was formed in Mar 1916. It would have been largely made up from the MG sections of the four infantry battalions in the brigade - 10th Royal Fusiliers, 13th Royal Fusiliers, 13th KRRC and 13th Rifle Brigade. His KRRC Service Number strongly suggests he transferred into the KRRC from another unit and that he did not enlist into the KRRC. He certainly was not one of the 13/KRRC originals - they went out on 31 Jul 1915 and therefore all had the 1914-15 Star entitlement. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 December , 2019 Share Posted 21 December , 2019 Some further detail on the 23 Oct 1918 attack from 111 Bde war diary ... All the trench map references should be prefixed by 51A if you want to plot them. I'm still looking for casualty data, but it seems the action against the enemy MG at 22:00hrs had the greater casualties. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 December , 2019 Share Posted 22 December , 2019 On 18/12/2019 at 12:20, Redman said: <snip> I have two photos with Ernest Saville on the back. one is a local studio pose in the U.K. The other taken somewhere in France of 5 soldiers. He and they wear the Crossed Machine gun cap badge and bandolier across their chests. <snip> dan redman Any chance you could post these photos Dan? You might need to make one or two more posts to gain the image posting functionality - Mods can confirm. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman Posted 29 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2019 Ok. Thanks everyone. ernest Saville. War gratuity is £5. Which when put into the calculator only gives a service of 12 months to his death in October 1918. Yet I have his photo wearing MGC insignia, with 'somewhere in France 1916' on it????? As pointed out to me his number indicates he transferred from another unit into the 13KRRC. Any other service number do not appear on the few records that survive. are there any other records I might try? are they any pertaining to the KRRC that have survived? i will load up picture of Ernest. happy new year all dan Just a thought would the service number close to Ernest tell me anything, ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman Posted 31 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman Posted 31 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2019 The left picture taken in his local photo studio in Loughton Essex. the group photo 'somewhere in France 1916' happy new year all dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) These men certainly look like MGC to me as well, though it's hard to see the thickness of the crossed items below the crown. The spurs and riding boots are odd though. MG Transport Section? Any chance of another, more detailed photo/scan of the left hand chap's cap badge? The badge could be School of Musketry, but with the context of the group, that would also seem odd. Yeomanry or cavalry is another possibility. Also do you have a complete chain of provenance for the photos going back to your grandmother? Mark Edited 1 January , 2020 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 If you have a wider interest in Loughton, High Beech and Epping Forest, you might enjoy this topic ... It's Rigg's Retreat at High Beech. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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