Training of the 15th Royal Warwickshire (2nd Birmingham)

[Polar Bear]

(Hopefully this is in the right place)

 

Anyway, according to information I have read supposedly two of the three Birmingham Pals battalions were trained in Sutton (Coldfield) Park. However my source doesn't give a source for this or which two battalions it was. Given that two weeks ago I discovered that my now very elderly mother walked through that very park on the way to school for pretty much her entire school life and that her great uncle died in the latter stages of the Somme campaign with the 15th RW my question is, were they one of the two battalions that trained there?

 

Any help (or indeed any pointers to where that help might be found) would be most appreciated for so far I have drawn a blank.

[PRC]

I've had cause to download a few pages from the British Newspaper Archive relating to Birmingham during the Great War over the last year, and as I remembered odd bids cropping up I've just had a look through. At the time it was incidental to what I was looking for , so there may well be other articles more relevant to what you need.

 

Birmingham Daily Post. Monday, September 21. 1914.

Two thousand men of the First and Second City Battalions gathered on Saturday at Thorp Street Drill Hall to be told the latest plans for their training, equipping and pay, along with a speech from the Lord Mayor.  From the second paragraph. "Within ten or twelve days, Colonel Barnsley announced, the men of the First Battalion were to be training at Sutton Park and he detailed the most important of the dispositions." For now they would all be on paid leave. (Crop of the opening paragraphs attached - I've spared you the Lord Mayors speech and the lengthy speculation about pay in absence of advice from the War Office!)

 

The opening week of September 1914 included daily lists of the previous days recruits for the City Battalions.

 

Birmingham Dail Mail, Tuesday, October 6, 1914.

 

FIRST CITY BATTALION. - SERIOUS TRAINING COMMENCED AT SUTTON. - A COURSE OF SWEDISH DRILL. - article.

SECOND BATTALION'S TRAINING. - TO BEGIN AT SUTTON ON MONDAY. - article.

THIRD BATTALION COMPLETED. -  article.

(Crop attached)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 6 December , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[Polar Bear]

Thank you so very much.

 

I had assumed that logically it was the 1st and 2nd Birminghams that trained there. However, I had absolutely no evidence of this and did not want to presume too much. Therefore with that in mind I will let my Mother know.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Polar Bear said:

her great uncle died in the latter stages of the Somme campaign with the 15th RW

 

While I remember where I've filed those downloaded pages ... what's the name?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Polar Bear]

His name was Private Horace Edward Stait.

 

(A helpfully unusual name)

 

[Though for full disclosure I must admit that 10 or so years ago I came here with another username and asked after him getting copious good information that formed the basis of my subsequent researches. However I have long forgotten the password to that seldom used account]

 

In the 1911 census he was a 'Clerk' and from the photo that is almost certainly him he really looks like one. He was born in 1892 (Therefore prime fodder for the war )

 

It should also be noted that he had a much older brother named Henry and in some peoples researches they link him to the Henry Stait who also died in the war. I think this is a mistake for a similarly named Henry Stait was born around that time and he fits the description much better [though determining this has taken much time and effort... and I'm still only 90% convinced]

 

The really sad thing is that in 1919 someone in Birmingham poignantly named their child... Horace Stait. Logically it is one of the many brothers (who appear to have mostly been in reserved occupations) but I haven't worked out who it was.

[Michelle Young]

I have found that account. Please let us know which account name you wish to use and we can merge accounts. 

 

Michelle 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

His name was Private Horace Edward Stait.

 

Sorry - struck out. From the end of August to till "4.30" on Saturday 5th September 1914 the recruiting office for those wishing to express an interest in joining the proposed new City Battalions was the office of the Birmingham Daily Post. In the edition dated Monday 7th September 1914 announcing this was now closed and that those who expressed an interest would be summoned for formal enlistment, it was stated over 4,500 men had signed up. I came across an L.J. Stait, of 65 Kenilworth Road, and a V. Staite of Bedford in the daily lists, but no likely candidate for Horace.

 

I see from the first article above, dated Monday, 21st, that formal recruitment for the 2nd Battalion had completed on the Saturday, (i.e. the 19th). As Horace is service number 890, (MiC and CWGC), I would suspect you're looking at a formal enlistment somewhere circa Thursday 17th to Saturday 19th.

 

If you haven't already tried it can I suggest checking out the British Newspaper Archive courtesy of your local Public Library, (if you reside in the UK). You can subscribe directly or its usually the underlying source for the Newspapers included in premium subscriptions on the main genealogy sites - however, in my experience the software used to transcribe the text is, to put it generously, quirky, and so the site needs to be got used to. However, as I said originally, one of my recent projects involved looking at a specific area of Birmingham, and from that I noticed Handsworth, (where Horace was living on the 1901 & 1911 censuses) gets frequently mentioned in the four main Birmingham titles availabe on that source.

 

10 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

The really sad thing is that in 1919 someone in Birmingham poignantly named their child... Horace Stait. Logically it is one of the many brothers (who appear to have mostly been in reserved occupations) but I haven't worked out who it was.

 

I'n sure you're aware, the mothers' maiden name for that child is Lee. Assuming this wasn't the mothers second marriage and that the couple hadn't married outside England and Wales, the marriage records for 1837 - 2006 show potentially just two likely marriages of a Mr. Stait to a Miss Lee, (I ruled out the 1845 one as a bit biologically impossible :-)

Note  - before September 1911 who married who wasn't cross indexed on the quarterly list of marriages in England & Wales published by the General Registrars Office, so for one of those marriages more investigation would need to be done to confirm that Mr Strait married a Miss Lee and not the other bride listed on the same page of the relevant local register.

 

I realise both 'not second marriage' and 'England & Wales only' are big asssumptions.

 

So the two you have are that:-

Charles Stait married either Beatrice Mary Preedy or Beatrice Jane Lee in the Gloucester District in Q2 of 1900

Frederick W. Stait married a Hannah Lee in the West Bromwich District of Staffordshire in Q2 of 1913

 

The Horace H. Stait born in 1919 was registered in the West Bromwich District, so seems like one set of parents are probably edging it. It doesn't look like the couple had any other children as far as England & Wales is concerned. Did Horace the soldier have a brother Frederick - if not then it's probably just co-incidence.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[Polar Bear]

8 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

I have found that account. Please let us know which account name you wish to use and we can merge accounts. 

 

Michelle 

 

Oh.

 

Thank you.

 

I would prefer to keep this one if there is not a problem with that.

[Polar Bear]

And Peter, thank you once again so very much.

 

The probable enlistment date is wonderful.

 

As to the marriage thank you so very much. I did have the Lee maiden name but hadnt managed to make the next step for the family seems to leap around between Handsworth... and West Bromwich. Is there a Frederick... well sort of. There's a William Frederick and the family do seem to have often used there middle name as what they were called by (May Elizabeth for example is usually found as a variant on Elizabeth even on official documents) and I note the marriage is a Frederick W. So that is a definite possible that I will have to look in to more.

 

Anyway, thank you so very much.

[Martin Bennitt]

Thanks for those little details. My great-uncle (Ernest Gordon Bennitt, 326) also joined the 2nd Birmingham Pals. He was killed at Roclincourt on June 6, 1916.

 

If you don't already have it, Terry Carter's Book on the history of the Birmingham Pals battalions is to be recommended.

 

Cheers Martin B

 

 

Edited 7 December , 2019 by Martin Bennitt
correcting date

[Polar Bear]

2 minutes ago, Martin Bennitt said:

Thanks for those little details. My great-uncle (Ernest Gordon Bennitt, 326) also joined the 2nd Birmingham Pals. He was killed at Roclincourt on April 6, 1916.

 

If you don't already have it, Terry Carter's Book on the history of the Birmingham Pals battalions is to be recommended.

 

Cheers Martin B

 

 

 

Don't have a copy but have read it via the library some years ago and similarly can recommend it.

 

Out of interest do you know what company/ platoon [is platoon correct... should I be using the word 'section'?] Ernest was in? Horace was in D company, 16 platoon. Somewhere... apparently on another computer... I have a list of those in that platoon... and the reason why I ask is that I also have a photo of that platoon and if he was in that one I will gladly share it with you should it be of assistance.

 

Anyway my commiserations on your similar loss.

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, Martin Bennitt said:

Ernest Gordon Bennitt, 326

 

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive and from the edition of the Birmingham Daily Post, Tuesday, September 1, 1914 - you might want to cast your eye over the names at the bottom of the crop............

 

 

[Alisonmallen62]

Do you have the full list please?  Sorry to butt in but would be very interested to know if there are Fairbrothers mentioned thank you

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

Do you have the full list please?

 

Sorry I don't know but I suspect not. These lists happened to be on the same pages as other items I was searching for, so I wasn't looking for them specifically nor do I have any plans to transcribe them - much as I like a challenge.

 

I've had a look at what I have and there are no Fairbrother's there. Most of these individuals would go to form the core of the 14th, 15th and 16th Battalions - some are likely to have been medically rejected, were underage or in reserved occupations.

 

A bit more background to what the press and the local civic officials were trying to achieve by pulling together a register of interest appeared in the edition of the Birmingham Daily Post dated Monday, August 31, 1914 - crop attached. (Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive).

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Alisonmallen62]

Will visit Birm library again as our last visit proved fruitful when we discovered a Military medal for R Allen.  Thank you for this - really very interesting 

[Martin Bennitt]

19 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

 

Don't have a copy but have read it via the library some years ago and similarly can recommend it.

 

Out of interest do you know what company/ platoon [is platoon correct... should I be using the word 'section'?] Ernest was in? Horace was in D company, 16 platoon. Somewhere... apparently on another computer... I have a list of those in that platoon... and the reason why I ask is that I also have a photo of that platoon and if he was in that one I will gladly share it with you should it be of assistance.

 

Anyway my commiserations on your similar loss.

 

Just realised I made a mistake in the date of his death. It was June 6, not April, when the 15th Battalion suffered heavily from a German trench raid followed by the explosion of three mines under the battalion positions. Ernest was a lance-corporal in B Coy, which was worst hit, and his body was never recovered. At 43, he was a veteran of South Africa and one of the oldest in the battalion.

 

Cheers Martin B

[Martin Bennitt]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive and from the edition of the Birmingham Daily Post, Tuesday, September 1, 1914 - you might want to cast your eye over the names at the bottom of the crop............

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that

 

Cheers bor

 

Martin Bennitt

 

 

 

[Terry Carter]

I'm sorry to say that I have seldom visited the Great War Forum in recent months. 

But if I can help in any way regarding the 15th Royal Warwickshire (2nd Birmingham Bn) please let me know

[Polar Bear]

4 hours ago, Terry Carter said:

I'm sorry to say that I have seldom visited the Great War Forum in recent months. 

But if I can help in any way regarding the 15th Royal Warwickshire (2nd Birmingham Bn) please let me know

 

Thank you for your very kind offer. Having done significant research on them I do actually have a couple of queries which I don't know whether you can help me with.

 

1) In the attack on Wood Lane Trench (22nd July) am I right in thinking that the 15th are on the right of the two battalion advance with the 14th on the left?

2) On the 30th July the 14th Royal Warwickshire are in action. Were the 15th? I have conflicting reports as to whether they are one of the three battalions moved up in unsuccessful support of the initial attacks by the 14th and the 2nd Battalion KOSB.

 

Any help would be most appreciated.

 

EDIT to add - both actions being 1916. Just realised that I didn't specify that. Also clarified the date in question 2.

 

 

 

Edited 21 January , 2020 by Polar Bear

[Terry Carter]

Hello again 

Sorry I've only just seen your reply. I'll get back to you 

Regards 

Terry 

[Polar Bear]

3 hours ago, Terry Carter said:

Hello again 

Sorry I've only just seen your reply. I'll get back to you 

Regards 

Terry 

 

No problems and no hurry. Also my thanks.

 

In fact I think I have answered my second question in that they weren't. Certainly the 15th do not seem to have been heavily engaged that day in that they 'only' lost three dead that day.

[Terry Carter]

For the attack on the evening of 22 July 1916 the 15th RWR were Brigade Reserve and moved up into the front line trench from where the 14th RWR and 1st RWest Kents had left to attack Germans in Wood Lane. 

D Coy of the 15th RWR were also ordered over the top to add support and according to the War Diary lost Heavily. 

Captains C A Bill and R I Gough were both wounded. 

Officers Killed 1

Other ranks killed 13

Officers wounded 5

Other ranks wounded 90

Officers missing 1

Other ranks missing 31

 

Unfortunately the war diary does not contain a detailed account of D Coys action. However the battalion history written by Captain C A Bill does contain further information. 

By the way Captain R I Gough (one of the youngest Captains in Army) later died of his wounds in Hospital 

Regards 

Terry 

[Polar Bear]

21 minutes ago, Terry Carter said:

D Coy of the 15th RWR were also ordered over the top to add support and according to the War Diary lost Heavily. 

Captains C A Bill and R I Gough were both wounded. 

Officers Killed 1

Other ranks killed 13

Officers wounded 5

Other ranks wounded 90

Officers missing 1

Other ranks missing 31

 

Thank you for that. From various secondary sources I had it appears created an erroneous [aka wrong!] picture of the assault.

 

Of course it would be D Company that were sent in and it is interesting comparing those statistics with those of the CWGC for according to them 34 members of the 15th RWR died immediately that fateful day (it can be extrapolated that a number of those who died of wounds after that date should rightly be added to that number but it is impossible to say how many of them that should be). I guess the difference between 14 and 34 is that 20 of the wounded/ and indeed more likely the missing are included in the larger CWGC number.

 

Whatever its a terrible price and with so many casualties taken by such a relatively small part of the battalion it must have been horrendous for the survivors.

 

Anyway thank you once again very much and I will attempt to read a copy of the battalion history. I note they have one at Boston Spa.