Edward Grey Irish Guards

[Mexquin]

Hi there I'm new to the forum and researching my Great uncle Edward Grey killed in action 12th Sept 1914, just before the battle of the Aisne. I have tracked down his service record, the regimental dairy for the period and various other documents i.e. regiments in the same Division, to try to find where he my have been killed. Looking for actions referred to by other regiments as the 1st Battalion's war dairy for that date is a one liner about pursuing the enemy. The index shows not deaths for that date, although in is listed as having died on that date in the IWGC site. I know from family history he was first missing presumed dead, and not listed as dead for sometime after that. I know where the regiment billeted on the 11th and again the night of the 12th, so if the date is right i have an area in which to search. But why on a day only two Irish Guard were killed and only 5 men from the entire division were lost, he has no burial place is beyond me. He was lost in an area which did not see action again until the German offensive in 1918. So short of being hit directly by a shell, it is a mystery as to why his place of death and hopeful burial have been lost. Although in the following days the Guards did suffer badly attacking the German positions at the Aisne, perhaps the men who knew where was, were killed there.  

In short I am at a loss, but hopefully that the body density maps may be helpful if any were done around Oulchy-le-Chateau and Courcelles if anyone has any pointer I would be very grateful.

 

regards

[jay dubaya]

I can add that his entry in the Soldiers Effects Register lists him as having been KiA on the 11th September 1914, however all other documents I have seen so far state the 12th. Coulmmieres Communal Cemetery is the resting place of 2042 Reynolds, 1st IG died on the 12th, next to him is an unknown soldier  (the only one in the cemetery).  Pte Webb, 1st IG died on the 11th and is buried in Soupir Churchyard with 6 unknowns although some can be identified by regiment. I shall have a further look later.

 

J

[ss002d6252]

In respect of CWGC and the Effects records, where there was a date range where the death could have been then typically the effects uses the earliest date and the CWGC the latest (although it can vary). Typically a range is given where they were in action and role calls etc couldn't easily be taken to note deaths.

 

Craig

[Mexquin]

Hi jay dubaya,

Thanks for that information, every little helps in trying to track down where Edward was killed. As you can imagine after the war Ireland distanced itself from the men who fought and they were discriminated against, attacked and even killed. Many families themselves distanced themselves from the knowledge and history of the soldier's service. So, in turn many letters, effects and other items were cast aside. Only since the 100 years anniversary of the war has any real attempt been made to recognize the sacrifice made by those men, many of who fought believing that it would further Ireland's cause for independence. I have found a surprising amount of families who to this day feel aggrieved that their ancestors have been blackened by a biased history written by biased people. 

To quote Jack Campbell of the Black watch an Irish veteran of WW1 in describing his remorse at the treatment of the Irish war dead "If you break fate with us that die, we shall never sleep"

So, in short, any information is thankfully received, if only to increase my knowledge my granduncle.

 

Mike

[Mexquin]

Hi,

 

I have scoured the regimental diary of the 1st Battalion Irish Guards, the other Guards dairies from the 2nd Division 4th Guards Brigade, even the diaries of the some of the Battalions and Regiments of the 5th and 6th Brigades, depending on operations on the day. I have managed to navigate the guard’s course that day and have had snippets of information on enemy activity, but still and no closer to finding out what happened. The IWGC and the IWM have been helpful but again no closer. 

 

On a wider sense I hope that this forum will help the large amount of Irish people searching for information on relatives who died in the great war, and finally get the recognition of their sacrifice that has been blackened for over 100 years.

 

"If ye break fate with us that died, we shall not sleep" Quote by Tom Campbell Black Watch Irish veteran of the Great War, when talking of the Irish killed in the WW1, he was haunted at an elderly age by the fact he believed they did not and could not rest until their sacrifice recognized.   

 

 

[museumtom]

Waterford War Memorial, in Dungarvan.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Welcome Mexquin,

 

Private GREY, EDWARD

LA FERTE-SOUS-JOUARRE MEMORIAL

 

Service Number 4283

Died 12/09/1914

Aged 22

1st Bn.
Irish Guards

Son of John and Ellen Grey, of Barrack St., Tallow, Co. Waterford.

 

 

If you do have other Irish soldiers to research,  the definitive reference is the 15 volume series "26 County Casualties of the Great War: Volumes 1-15, by Tom Burnell.

 

Available at all good bookshops (and lots of poor ones, plus the Amazon).

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

There are excellent histories of Irish regiment’s experiences in WW1, most of them written relatively soon after the war, and often by officers with intimate experience of their units operations.  As regards the Irish Guards I would recommend the regimental history by Rudyard Kipling, which was a true act of love and written by a man who is generally recognised as a master in the art of penmanship.  Even today his book on the Irish Guards activities in WW1 is rated as one of the best regimental histories.  It should be available via a public library (to order), and might even be accessible online, although I’m unsure of that.  
 

Whilst the sacrifice of Irishmen in the Great War might not have been recognised in the Republic of Ireland, I don’t think it’s true to say that it’s forgotten in Britain.  Irishmen from the 4 provinces continued to serve in the British Army after independence and still do so today. As someone who served alongside them for a long time I can say that the British Army would be a lesser place without them. There continues to be a memorial to the Irish Regiments in both, Windsor Castle and the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.

Edited 28 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[JasonMc]

But after reading the text again I believe you are looking to find where Edward Gray could be buried or what potentially happened him?

And also please don’t assume that all Irish soldiers of the First World War have been “blackened for over 100 years” - my own family, and many many others, are all very proud of their family involvement, and have always been. And I know from my frequent visits to the Western front and the UK that this is felt all over too.

 

I’ve been looking at the CWGC names killed around the same dates of the 1st Bn Irish Guards to get a better idea of what was happening with the burials.

 

On the 11th Sept 1914 there are two deaths. One is named on the La Ferte Sous Jouarre Memorial (as are most from this time period so there’s about a 50% missing rate from what very limited data I’ve looked at). The other from this date is Pte L. Webb, 3890, who is buried in SOUPIR CHURCHYARD.

 

On the 12th there is only 1 other than Edward Gray and that’s L/Cpl John Joseph Reynolds, 2049, buried in COULOMMIERS COMMUNAL CEMETERY. This was a French Hospital Centre behind the lines.

 

The 13th Sept  has one death, and is again missing, so it’s on the Memorial.

 

From the 14th things seem to get a lot more active with 15 deaths from the 1st Bn.  7 of these are on the memorial so that’s a 50% rate of burials to missing. Of the burials though 4 of these are in SOUPIR COMMUNAL CEMETERY. 1 in GUARDS GRAVE, VILLERS COTTERETS FOREST, and 3 in VAILLY BRITISH CEMETERY.

 

I included the 13th and 14th in the search as potentially his remains may have been found after then buried in these other nearby cemeteries.

 

So that gives 5 Cemeteries to look into. 3 that don’t show much promise but the final 2 look worth of further research.

 

SOUPIR CHURCHYARD - For much of the war it remained very close to the front line and changed hands a few times. 36 burials, Six of which are unidentified. But they all had  some regimental ID on burial and none are Irish Guards. (2 have the regimental id scored out later and are now UBS but still no evidence that could be Irish Guards)

 

SOUPIR COMMUNAL CEMETERY - 16 graves brought in after Armistice from NW corner of Vailly and all identified.

 

GUARDS GRAVE, VILLERS COTTERETS FOREST - Mostly burials from the 4th Sept. And the only Irish Guard around the time of interest 1st Bn is 14th Sept and is identified.

 

VAILLY BRITISH CEMETERY - this is where the 3rd Division crossed the Aisne. Established after the Armistice and concentrated many Commonwealth graves here. 670 burials and 370 are identified. Also the 3 known Irish Guards are buried amongst unknowns.

For example looking at Pte Gallagher, 1st Irish Guards, - the 4 burials beside him were buried together under unknown crosses. But on concentration he had an ID disc so now has a marked grave.

Looking at Boland he is buried amonst Unknowns all found together too. He was buried under an unknown cross but on concentration there was an insurance card to ID him.

It looks like the Original burials of these Irish Guards was done quickly and without much care taken to ID the men. Possibly they were buried by German or French soldiers?

If I was a betting man I’d be putting my money that Gray is interred here in Vailly and if not the next cemetery one could be worth looking into too.

 

COULOMMIERS COMMUNAL CEMETERY - French Hospital  there is an Unknown British Soldier buried in B.16, very likely coincidentally but this UBS is buried beside Reynolds the only other 1st Bn Irish Guards Soldier from that day. Could be worth more research…

 

The concentration reports for Vailly would be worthy of more consideration and combined with what you know of the Bn movements could pinpoint places that overlap.

Good luck with the search!

[KizmeRD]

Not being Irish, I'm not hugely familiar with what memorials exist outside of Dublin, but anyone visiting the capital city who has an interest in the Great War should pay a visit to the National Memorial Gardens at Islandbridge. Another impressive Edwin Lutyens construction. It was there where the Taoiseach laid a wreath in 2016 to mark the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. Built specifically to commemorate the 49,400 Irishmen who died in WW1.

Michael

[JasonMc]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

Not being Irish, I'm not hugely familiar with what memorials exist outside of Dublin, but anyone visiting the capital city who has an interest in the Great War should pay a visit to the National Memorial Gardens at Islandbridge. Another impressive Edwin Lutyens construction. It was there where the Taoiseach laid a wreath in 2016 to mark the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. Built specifically to commemorate the 49,400 Irishmen who died in WW1.

Michael

 

It is certainly well worth a visit to Islandbridge, KizmeRD.

 

Also Glasnevin Cemetery has many interesting memorials relation to WW1 including the first Cross of Sacrifice in Ireland, memorials to some Irish VCs, the France Ireland memorial & memorials to Irishmen in both World Wars. There are over 200 Commonwealth service personnel buried in Glasnevin Cemetery also. 

Glasnevin Cemetery is a very interesting visit for anyone with even a slight interest in our history as it takes in not only the World Wars, but also the Civil War, and most of Ireland's most prominent figures are buried here.

 

I try search out many small more individual Irish memorials as I happen to travel around the country but I doubt I'll ever see all of them as they are quite numerous! There's a fairly comprehensive list here though:

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/Memorials?warId=1

 

[Mexquin]

Hi All,

 

Frogsmile I'in reference to your post I've read the Irish guards in the great war by Rudyard Kipling, but for the dates in question there sadly very little written. A brief description of chasing the enemy. I think that because of the Battle of the Aisne and the lessening of action in the days before hand, the 9th to the 12th have been largely over looked. I've ordered more books on line dealing with the BEF in 1914, hopefully I'll have more look there.

 

JasonMc thanks for that info on the burials I had checked out the CWGC website but wasn't able to figure out how to search for unknown soldiers, I have a comprehensive list of the known burials and only numbers of unknown. Betting man or not it will take some time to wade through that and compare it to the War maps and dispatches I have. I had hoped that his date was correct as the concentrated fighting from the 13th on wards lefts little hope of finding him. But I am interested the COULOMMIERS COMMUNAL CEMETERY burial, that could be worth a look. the VAILLY BRITISH CEMETERY may take a little more research to say the least.   Again thanks for the info.

 

[Mexquin]

Just a question is there anyway to search for wounded soldiers by date, all search engines I've used need a name. It might be a pointer if it was possible as wounded soldiers on the same day from the same Battalion might point to a place, that perhaps Edwards was killed.

[ss002d6252]

17 minutes ago, Mexquin said:

Just a question is there anyway to search for wounded soldiers by date, all search engines I've used need a name. It might be a pointer if it was possible as wounded soldiers on the same day from the same Battalion might point to a place, that perhaps Edwards was killed.

You're out of luck with that.

Craig

[Jervis]

2 hours ago, Mexquin said:

Just a question is there anyway to search for wounded soldiers by date, all search engines I've used need a name. It might be a pointer if it was possible as wounded soldiers on the same day from the same Battalion might point to a place, that perhaps Edwards was killed.

 

You might find Newspaper archives useful. I have used them in the past for the same purpose. Casualties were published in batches usually 2 to 3 weeks after action. By cross checking the KIA in the batch against SDGW or CWGC and the actual date of death you can get a rough date/ range of dates for the group. Further information war diaries, regimental histories etc can sometimes help narrow it down further. But it is time consuming. 

[Jervis]

On 28/11/2019 at 07:45, Mexquin said:

As you can imagine after the war Ireland distanced itself from the men who fought and they were discriminated against, attacked and even killed. Many families themselves distanced themselves from the knowledge and history of the soldier's service. So, in turn many letters, effects and other items were cast aside. Only since the 100 years anniversary of the war has any real attempt been made to recognize the sacrifice made by those men, many of who fought believing that it would further Ireland's cause for independence. I have found a surprising amount of families who to this day feel aggrieved that their ancestors have been blackened by a biased history written by biased people. 

To quote Jack Campbell of the Black watch an Irish veteran of WW1 in describing his remorse at the treatment of the Irish war dead "If you break fate with us that die, we shall never sleep"

So, in short, any information is thankfully received, if only to increase my knowledge my granduncle.

 

Mike

 

Welcome to the forum Mike, I am sure you will find people very helpful here in your research.

I agree with you that there was and still is to some extent a National amnesia and indifference to service in the Great War in Ireland. There was also a reticence to admit to service in the British army although I feel that has changed now.

 

But I do think you maybe over stating things a little. There has been excellent study done by Paul Taylor (“Heroes or traitors”) on the treatment of WW1 veterans in Ireland post war. He did his own research into soldiers murders, soldiers claims for financial compensation from the crown, housing policy, employment etc.

 

His main conclusions is that the ex. soldiers were such a large and diverse group they could not be treated as one homogeneous unit. Their experiences in post war Ireland were less defined by being an ex.Soldier and much more affected by other factors (political allegiances, religion, economic status, rural-urban etc).

 

So yes there were some ex. Soldiers that were killed (incidentally Crown forces killed roughly as many ex soldiers as the IRA), some that were discriminated against etc. But the key point is the recorded numbers were so tiny and insignificant (much less than 1%in regard to the overall number of ex. soldiers in the country) that these extreme actions simply do not represent the experience of the average ex. soldiers. The overwhelming majority of ex.soldiers made their way in life inline with their social peers.

 

On the other side of the scale It should be noted ex soldiers played an active participation in building the new state - most notably in the new National army. During the civil war, IRA leader Emmet Dalton -  himself an ex British Officer and MC holder - approached the Royal British Legion in order to conscript large number of ex. Soldiers into the new Army. Much to the chagrin of former IRA men the new, the new government favoured ex soldiers in the new army; appointing them to key leadership position as well as the rank and file. 

Edited 29 November , 2019 by Jervis