ejwalshe Posted 23 November , 2019 Share Posted 23 November , 2019 102 YEARS AGO TODAY: British soldiers examining a German DFW two-seat biplane brought down in front of Flesquieres, 23rd November 1917. Tanks of the 1st Tank Brigade (51st Division) parked up close to an unfinished German concrete bunker near Flesquieres, 23 November 1917. Men of the 51st Highland Division in Flesquieres, 23 November 1917. Civilians found in Masnieres by the 29th Division on 20th November 1917. 23 November, 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 23 November , 2019 Share Posted 23 November , 2019 Interesting series, as always. here's pic at 2.55 today. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 25 November , 2019 Share Posted 25 November , 2019 Hi Peter, I've often tried to match up the photo which appears at 2'55" and I'm not convinced it's in the location shown in your photo. There are some other well-known pictures showing horses being watered in the pond in Flesquieres, which are in this location. However the buildings in the background of the shot showing the Highlanders washing don't match any other photo I've seen. While it's overwhelmingly likely that it was taken in Flesquieres, and many credible sources state this, I'm afraid the exact location remains a mystery. All the best, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 26 November , 2019 Share Posted 26 November , 2019 (edited) John, Yes I know the pic you mean - below, 47th Div I believe - and agree with the query. Quite some time ago, when working on The Hindenburg Line guidebook, I spent some time in around Flesquieres, looking for vestiges and trying to match photos. A couple of local historians were adamant that the pic was correct one, although I think the brick and limestone wall on the right, visible in the current pic, lends itself to the second pic. Regards Peter Edited 26 November , 2019 by mebu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 26 November , 2019 Share Posted 26 November , 2019 (edited) I have deleted my post of a few minutes ago. As I look at both 2.55 and the horses being watered I am not convinced that it is the same view. For years I always thought it was but the background is not quite right. Could it be the opposite end of the pond with the road in the background going to Ribecourt Edited 26 November , 2019 by stripeyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 (edited) Hi, actually I'm glad this has been raised as I've long been mystified by the photo (attached) - it's always been described as being in Flesquieres, and there are a number of other photos showing Highland troops which were obviously taken in the village. Like you I assumed this one shows the other end of the large pond in the well-known photo of horses being watered, which was definitely taken in Flesquieres (there was even a 'then and now' photo in Stand To!) However, that doesn't fit in with the road layout - the road to the right would be the one leading out of the village towards the south-east, i.e. towards Ribecourt, but that's quite a wide junction and never went through an arch, so it can't be there. A few years ago I searched through old photos of the village with Philippe Gorczynski trying to find similar buildings, and we drew a blank. Of course it could have been taken elsewhere in Flesquieres, perhaps at a smaller pond or well, or else in one of the surrounding villages, but for now the location remains unknown. I've even considered buying a high resolution scan from the IWM to see if it's possible to read the writing on the doors under the archway on the right-hand side - and also to check if the photo has been printed the wrong way round, though that seems incredibly unlikely. All the best, John Edited 27 November , 2019 by johntaylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 (edited) An interesting puzzle. I note from IWM photographs that there were arches in Marcoing (not this one) and Anneux (not clear), so I suppose they were common features. . The gate suggests it was to keep animals out. . At a real stretch you might say there is a plain battle patch on a sleeve, indicating 6th Gordons of 152 Bde. Edited 28 November , 2019 by Open Bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 28 November , 2019 Share Posted 28 November , 2019 Hi, that's interesting because the photo appears in War Memoirs by Wilfred Bion, who commanded one of E Battalion's tanks in the attack on Flesquieres on November 20. He says the photo shows men from 6th Gordons, though he also says the photo was taken on November 20 which is almost certainly incorrect. Bion's book includes a sketch map showing where the photo was taken, but even with this I can't make sense of it. He says the road to the left led to "my end of the village", meaning this is the road leading SE towards Ribecourt where E Bn attacked. He says the other road leads to "Coutaing", which is clearly a misreading for Cantaing - in other words this is the road that leads NE past the British cemetery and new Deborah museum. You'd think this would make it easy, but I still can't relate the pond and buildings to anything I've seen in Flesquieres, either now or in old photos. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 28 November , 2019 Share Posted 28 November , 2019 John, if the location escapes you I will have no chance of running it down! It looks like there are four roads leading out of the photograph, which might make someone sitting in their chair (me) think it the long pond seen from ~18d1.2; but perhaps not someone who knows the place (Bion, Philippe and yourself). I wonder which 'left' Bion means - behind the photographer or in the direction the horses are coming from? Even with a mirror image (with many reasons against, like the kilt edge and limbers on the wrong side of the road) the combinations don't add up for me... Behind the photographer could now be Ribecourt and the horses could be coming from Cantaing. Enough! Warning - mirror image! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 28 November , 2019 Share Posted 28 November , 2019 This an interesting exercise, and in mirror image the layout actually fits slightly better with the crossroads at the centre of Flesquieres - however it also requires the Highlanders in the foreground to be left-handed so I don't think it's correct. The writing in the doorway would prove it conclusively. Assuming the photo is the right way round as it's always been printed, this would mean the Highlanders are at the far end of the long pond from where the horses are being watered. However I've seen one German photo looking in this direction, which shows the headwall of the pond was quite tall and straight, and doesn't look anything like this one. Also the buildings opposite look completely different with no sign of an archway opposite. In fact the crossroads is quite wide and open, and the road layout doesn't match the one in this photo. I did take some comparison photos but of course I can't find them now - however the one below is looking along what was the pond towards the crossroads (i.e. we're looking in the direction the horsemen were facing) and it gives some sense of the layout, though obviously the buildings have changed in the meantime. I guess I'll just have to shell out for a high-res version from the IWM and hope the writing says something useful. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 28 November , 2019 Share Posted 28 November , 2019 John and others - I must admit to still being flummoxed by this: obviously my original informants were not correct and I did not check it thoroughly, probably wasn't too relevant at the time. The "other" end of the pond only works if it extended as far as the furthest car in the last pic, but then that puts the roadway on the left rather than the right of the pond. As the horses/47th Div picture does match well, especially with the brick/limestone wall, I can only conclude that it is a different village. As it would not be the first IWM pic to have an incorrect caption, and many or most villages would have a cattle/horse water point, I have tried to match with others in the locality but to no avail. I'm not too sure the writing on the doorway will reveal any info, hopefully it does. Will keep pondering (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 Hi, I agree with your points but have an open mind as to whether this was in Flesquieres or another village. The caption could be incorrect, but the photo has always been linked to Flesquieres and you would think that someone like Wilfred Bion, who was there during and after the battle, would have known. I'm pretty sure it doesn't show the large pond (where the horses are being watered), but it might be a smaller pond somewhere else in the village - though nothing like it appears on the map. Alternatively it could be in one of the surrounding villages, since the same photographer took pictures in Ribecourt and elsewhere at around the same time. Ultimately it remains a powerful and evocative image wherever it was taken... but I'd still love to know! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 24 minutes ago, johntaylor said: Ultimately it remains a powerful and evocative image wherever it was taken... but I'd still love to know! Absolutely. This does not help, but of course the next number on IWM is John Warwick Brooke's Q6325, captioned a well in Flesquieres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyman Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 Are the soldiers wearing the Gordon tartan? This would clarify that they are in fact Gordon Highlanders and in Flesquieres at the time that the photograph was taken. This would likely substantiate that it is in fact Flesquieres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 (edited) Out of interest - doing a bit of digging, just found that the 47th Div/horse watering photo above - which certainly matches Flesquieres today - appears in a film in the IWM photo archive, shows the horses watering and leaving the pond, which I hadn't seen before. Peter PS the date, 24th November, seems a little early as I didn't think the 47th div arrived for a few days yet, unless their artillery arrived whilst 51st div still in the village. Edited 29 November , 2019 by mebu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 The horse being watered is Brooke's photo Q6320, is captioned '235th Bde. (47th Div. Art.) Flesquieres 24/11/1917'. No diary for that unit but 47th division General staff gives the locations for the divisional artillery units for 23rd & 24th November. 23rd. Wanquentin & Warlus Area. 24th. Moved to Boisleux-au-Mont, Behagnies, Sapignies, HQ (artillery) at Achiet-le-Petit. It's about 21Km (as the crow flies) from Wanquentin (W of Arras) to Behagnies/Sapignies area with Boisleux-au-Mont 3/4 of the way along that route. Flesquieres is about another 20 Km (as the crow flies) to the east of Behagnies/Sapignies area which makes rather a massive detour. It would make the journey Wanquentin - Flesquieres - Behagnies about 60 Km (as the crow flies) rather than the 21Km for a more direct route. Something must be wrong. Date? Unit? The 'Shaving' photo, Q6324. Diary for 6/Gordons states they were relieved by Irish Guards 3am 24/11/17 and moved to Flesquieres area until 3.30 pm 24/11/17 when they moved to Metz. 51 Division General staff diary has a map of the Flesquieres area for 7pm 23/11/17 which shows 4/Seaforths, 7/ASH, 7/Gordons and Bde. HQ in Flesquieres village. The other units spread out to the NE and Fontaine. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 29 November , 2019 Share Posted 29 November , 2019 (edited) On 28/11/2019 at 15:02, Open Bolt said: Even with a mirror image (with many reasons against, like the kilt edge and limbers on the wrong side of the road) the combinations don't add up for me... When it is reversed not only are the limbers are on the wrong side of the road, the riders are on the wrong horses. And as you say, the kilts are reversed. Edit: typo. Edited 2 December , 2019 by Heid the Ba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 2 December , 2019 Share Posted 2 December , 2019 On 29/11/2019 at 15:54, Heid the Ba said: the riders are on the wrong horses Good point - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 2 December , 2019 Share Posted 2 December , 2019 I think we've established beyond reasonable doubt that the picture is printed the right way round. Apologies for that red herring, but to mix metaphors, I was clutching at straws. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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