Is this ww1 uniform?

[Familymystery]

Hey, so I'm trying to figure out who this person is in a family photo album, but can't tell what uniform this is, or what the cap badge is, as I know it'll be able to help me narrow it down. I can't unfortunately get a clear photo of the badge, but it looks like there's 6-8 circles or balls in the middle of it, and I cant tell you the date of the photo, but probably between the years 1880 and 1920.

 

I also have this group photo, and a photo of a man on a horse. If anything can be Identified that would be amazing.

Sorry, I'll see if I can get a better photo of the horse one tomorrow.

[Sepoy]

Hi
The clear photographs show a member of the Sussex Yeomanry, probably during WW1 or just before, He is not wearing any shoulder titles (T: Y: SUSSEX) which may have made identifying his unit a little easier for you.
The group photograph show Firemen.
Hope this helps.
Sepoy

Edited 21 November , 2019 by Sepoy

[Familymystery]

2 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

Hi
The clear photographs show a member of the Sussex Yeomanry, probably during WW1 or just before, He is not wearing any shoulder titles which may have made identifying his unit a little easier for you.
The group photograph show Firemen.
Hope this helps.
Sepoy

Thank you! I wasn't expecting firemen... may have to dig through family history records to find out who it could be then. But the Sussex yeomanry will be really helpful, thank you!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It's rather unfair to ask forum members to offer an opinion on the first photograph.

You should obtain a better copy, preferably a high resolution scan, rather than a blurred grab shot from a mobile phone.

 

[Sepoy]

is this the same man?????
Sepoy

(NB the ear shape looks very similar)

[Wardog]

Young men who were active in the Yeomanry could be the sort who would take part in other village/town voluntary activities such as bands, fire brigades, sports teams but I'm not noticing an obvious match in the firemen group. Regards, Paul.

[Familymystery]

Thanks! I'll take a closer look at that photo Sepoy, thanks.

 

Here's a closer photo of the horse man, and a few others I've come across too in this photo album. It's really bugging me because whoever put the album together absolutely removed any mention of who any of them are. Some photos I have have writing on the back, and I'm guessing one is in India or Africa as he talks about being black (tanned) from the sun, and another looks like he's posing with non-white men, but I can't really tell.

On 21/11/2019 at 22:37, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

It's rather unfair to ask forum members to offer an opinion on the first photograph.

You should obtain a better copy, preferably a high resolution scan, rather than a blurred grab shot from a mobile phone.

 

I know, hence saying I would get a better one. But had to take a while doing so due to broken comp/2 yr old son and trying to get decent images

[Familymystery]

On 21/11/2019 at 22:40, Sepoy said:

is this the same man?????
Sepoy

(NB the ear shape looks very similar)

Erm, do you know the name for him? I'm currently looking at people who are either a Thompson or a Woolley, but again may not be because family member HATES writing helpful notes. So I've only managed to work out 2 people purely by chance and finding their baby records, and one of them actually writing their own name on it.

[CorporalPunishment]

On 23/11/2019 at 01:43, Wardog said:

Young men who were active in the Yeomanry could be the sort who would take part in other village/town voluntary activities such as bands, fire brigades, sports teams but I'm not noticing an obvious match in the firemen group. Regards, Paul.

The young lad third from the right in the centre row could be the yeoman.  Pete.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Well done for posting a good quality image.

It really makes a big difference.

With the eye of faith, am I seeing the same deer cap badge for the mounted soldier as the colar dogs in post #7, 2nd photo?

Not sure what regiment that might be, but is there a Warwickshire link ?

[Familymystery]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Well done for posting a good quality image.

It really makes a big difference.

With the eye of faith, am I seeing the same deer cap badge for the mounted soldier as the colar dogs in post #7, 2nd photo?

Not sure what regiment that might be, but is there a Warwickshire link ?

I'm really not sure of a Warwickshire link, most of the family seems to have come from Kent, and never moved. But yes, I believe they may be the same man, or if not, then brothers.

[FROGSMILE]

The man with the Antelope collar badges is Royal Warwickshire Regiment and wearing the pattern of collar badge adopted for other ranks in 1890. Previously it was the Bear and Staff of the Earl of Warwick.  There seems a great family resemblance between the photos, could they be the same person, perhaps serving with a different unit as an older man during WW1? 

Edited 25 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The man with the Antelope collar badges is Royal Warwickshire Regiment and wearing the pattern of collar badge adopted for other ranks in 1890. Previously it was the Bear and Staff of the Earl of Warwick.  There seems a great family resemblance between the photos, could they be the same person, perhaps serving with a different unit as an older man during WW1? 

I think the Royal Warwickshire Regiment soldier and the older gent in the next photo are the same man, not sure about the others. The older man wears "Rifles" buttons but tying down his regiment is highly unlikely.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think the Royal Warwickshire Regiment soldier and the older gent in the next photo are the same man, not sure about the others. The older man wears "Rifles" buttons but tying down his regiment is highly unlikely.   Pete.

Yes, Pete, that’s what I was thinking too and I hoped that the inquirer might throw some light on that likelihood.  The older man is clearly a Corporal during WW1 and was probably an ex-regular as seen in his younger guise as a Royal Warwickshire Regiment private wearing foreign service khaki drill uniform (medal ribbons refer and ID of them will confirm his regular battalion).  

I think his advanced age in the later photo as a Corporal suggests that his reservist obligation had probably expired and that he then ‘volunteered’ during WW1, either as TF, or perhaps more likely in a ‘Service battalion’, whose terms and conditions were, as you will know, as short-service regulars and so would have been ‘reckonable’ towards a military pension on top of his earlier service, which was no small attraction when compared with TF.
As you say, he wears rifle regiment general service (black) buttons, as well as a simplified pattern SD jacket, and rifles issue, Slade-Wallace pattern belt, so he was probably Rifle Brigade or KRRC.  The former provided several garrison battalions formed from older and less fit men co-opted from a range of other regiments, and I wonder if he might be one of them.  A much longer shot, if he had joined the TF instead, might be the London Regiment in one of its battalions with a rifles association.

 

NB.  I think that the man in a greatcoat is the same Sussex Yeomanry soldier as seen in the other photos.  I’m wondering if the photos show father (Warwickshire’s and rifles) and son (Sussex Yeomanry).  There is a clear family likeness.

 

Afternote:  after examination I believe that the Corporal’s medals are the Queen’s South Africa Medal with 6-clasps (typical for 2nd Battalion veterans) and the India General Service Medal 1908 for North West Frontier clasp (Mohmand Expedition - typical for 1st Battalion), which suggests that he served with both regular battalions of the Royal Warwickshire’s. 

 

 

Edited 25 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, Pete, that’s what I was thinking too and I hoped that the inquirer might throw some light on that likelihood.  The older man is clearly a Corporal during WW1 and was probably an ex-regular as seen in his younger guise as a Royal Warwickshire Regiment private wearing foreign service khaki drill uniform (medal ribbons refer and ID of them will confirm his regular battalion).  

I think his advanced age in the later photo as a Corporal suggests that his reservist obligation had probably expired and that he then ‘volunteered’ during WW1, either as TF, or perhaps more likely in a ‘Service battalion’, whose terms and conditions were, as you will know, as short-service regulars and so would have been ‘reckonable’ towards a military pension on top of his earlier service, which was no small attraction when compared with TF.
As you say, he wears rifle regiment general service (black) buttons, as well as a simplified pattern SD jacket, and rifles issue, Slade-Wallace pattern belt, so he was probably Rifle Brigade or KRRC.  The former provided several garrison battalions formed from older and less fit men co-opted from a range of other regiments, and I wonder if he might be one of them.  A much longer shot, if he had joined the TF instead, might be the London Regiment in one of its battalions with a rifles association.

 

NB.  I think that the man in a greatcoat is the same Sussex Yeomanry soldier as seen in the other photos.  I’m wondering if the photos show father (Warwickshire’s and rifles) and son (Sussex Yeomanry).  There is a clear family likeness.

 

Afternote:  after examination I believe that the Corporal’s medals are the Queen’s South Africa Medal with 6-clasps (typical for 2nd Battalion veterans) and the India General Service Medal 1908 for North West Frontier clasp (Mohmand Expedition - typical for 1st Battalion), which suggests that he served with both regular battalions of the Royal Warwickshire’s. 

 

 

Definitely the Queen's South Africa Medal with seven clasps. I think the other medal is either the India General Service Medal (1854), issued up to 1895, or it's replacement, the India Medal which was issued from 1896 to1902.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

I made it 6-clasps, because I thought the other was a suspension bar, Pete.  Seven clasps were rare for the Royal Warwickshire’s, although he might have had a seventh if part of his unit’s mounted infantry (MI) section.

The Royal Warwickshire’s 1st Battalion did qualify for the earlier India General Service Medal 1854-1895 for a campaign in 1868, so our subject couldn’t have been eligible for that one.  That’s why I think he must have been with the 1st Battalion on the NWF Mohmand Expedition in 1908.  There is no record of the Royal Warwickshire’s being eligible for the 1896-1902 India Medal. Perhaps he transferred to another regiment and earned it with them, which was not at all unusual.

Edited 25 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Familymystery]

This information will definitely help, thank you. The stamps on the back of some of the photos indicate 1900 or after, but they're cut off partway so can't fully see what year. And one mentions on the back "I am not a n*****, I am just a little black" then talks about his dog and signs off with a nickname which looks like Mugger but I have no clue.

 

Let me re-read your replies and see if I can match them up. One side of the family were Army, the other were Navy. I think I remember seeing something about medals and or India. I know one of them went to Malta.

[CorporalPunishment]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I made it 6-clasps, because I thought the other was a suspension bar, Pete.  Seven clasps were rare for the Royal Warwickshire’s, although he might have had a seventh if part of his unit’s mounted infantry (MI) section.

The Royal Warwickshire’s 1st Battalion did qualify for the earlier India General Service Medal 1854-1895 for a campaign in 1868, so our subject couldn’t have been eligible for that one.  That’s why I think he must have been with the 1st Battalion on the NWF Mohmand Expedition in 1908.  There is no record of the Royal Warwickshire’s being eligible for the 1896-1902 India Medal. Perhaps he transferred to another regiment and earned it with them, which was not at all unusual.

The first medal has a ribbon of five equal stripes, not the three of the IGSM(1909) and the QSAM definitely has seven clasps. The order of wear is also correct for the medals.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I can see now that the India Medal (1854-1902) ribbon configuration fits - I can also make out Queen Victoria’s silhouette, which matches - but as I said it doesn’t fit for the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, so if it is the same man then he most likely transferred.  
The 7-clasps on the QSAM suggest that he was in the MI.

Edited 26 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Familymystery said:

This information will definitely help, thank you. The stamps on the back of some of the photos indicate 1900 or after, but they're cut off partway so can't fully see what year. And one mentions on the back "I am not a n*****, I am just a little black" then talks about his dog and signs off with a nickname which looks like Mugger but I have no clue.

 

Let me re-read your replies and see if I can match them up. One side of the family were Army, the other were Navy. I think I remember seeing something about medals and or India. I know one of them went to Malta.

Any familial information relating to India and medals will help make more sense of the photos.  The Corporal’s medals are especially interesting and he can only be an ex-regular with the combination that he has, which matches with the younger man wearing Antelope collar badges (Royal Warwickshire Regiment).  Don’t be put off by that County association, it was not until between the two World Wars that regiments really began to fully take on their County identity in terms of wide scale local recruitment.

Edited 26 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I can see now that the India Medal (1854-1902) ribbon configuration fits - I can also make out Queen Victoria’s silhouette, which matches - but as I said it doesn’t fit for the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, so if it is the same man then he most likely transferred.  
The 7-clasps on the QSAM suggest that he was in the MI.

It is the India Medal (1895 - 1902) with clasp for the "Relief of Chitral, 1895". This can be spotted by the fact there are no "mounting" tags on the top ends of the clasp. All later clasps for this medal were produced with these tags to make it easy for further clasps to riveted in place. The lack of the tags on the Chitral clasp gave those who went on to receive further clasps mounting problems.  Both the 3rd Battalion, Rifle Brigade and 1st Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps served during the relief of Chitral in 1895.

Both Regiments went on to serve during the Anglo Boer War (1899 - 1902) with the Natal Field Force and the attempt to relieve Ladysmith. It would have been quite possible for members of these Regiments to gain a multi clasp Queen's South Africa Medal with Tugela Heights; Relief of Ladysmith; Laing's Nek; plus a number of State clasps and date clasps.

Sepoy

Edited 26 November , 2019 by Sepoy

[johnboy]

Picture 3 possibly a group of firemen?

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Sepoy said:

It is the India Medal (1895 - 1902) with clasp for the "Relief of Chitral, 1895". This can be spotted by the fact there are no "mounting" tags on the top ends of the clasp. All later clasps for this medal were produced with these tags to make it easy for further clasps to riveted in place. The lack of the tags on the Chitral clasp gave those who went on to receive further clasps mounting problems.  Both the 3rd Battalion, Rifle Brigade and 1st Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps served during the relief of Chitral in 1895.

Both Regiments went on to serve during the Anglo Boer War (1899 - 1902) with the Natal Field Force and the attempt to relieve Ladysmith. It would have been quite possible for members of these Regiments to gain a multi clasp Queen's South Africa Medal with Tugela; Relief of Ladysmith; Laing's Nek; plus a number of State clasps and date clasps.

Sepoy

 

Thank you, Sepoy, that is all very helpful.  Either the younger and older man are not the same person, as previously thought, or he must have transferred between regiments.

 

Edited 26 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Familymystery]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Any familial information relating to India and medals will help make more sense of the photos.  The Corporal’s medals are especially interesting and he can only be an ex-regular with the combination that he has, which matches with the younger man wearing Antelope collar badges (Royal Warwickshire Regiment).  Don’t be put off by that County association, it was not until between the two World Wars that regiments really began to fully take on their County identity in terms of wide scale local recruitment.

Let me ask around. My great aunt may have some information, but she's rather uptight and insists she never spent time with them, yet is after this album... I'm trying to catalogue the photos before she realises I have it.