DCL Posted 16 November , 2019 Share Posted 16 November , 2019 Charles was my grandfather At some point after 1911 Charles Robert moved to Oxford. The dates are unclear. He joined the Oxford & Bucks Light Infantry, B Company, and served in The Great War. Service Number 202249. He was taken prisoner on the 22nd August 1917 at Ypres and kept at Gustrow and Dulmen POW Camps, until the end of the war. I would like to find any other information available for my grandfather. Many thanks, David Charles Lawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonMc Posted 16 November , 2019 Share Posted 16 November , 2019 His medal index card is available for free on ancestry and shows he has two numbers 5799 and 202249. There is no 1914 or 1914/15 star so he wasn't overseas until after 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 16 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2019 Hello Jason, Many thanks for your kind and prompt response. I have just joined Find My Past so the info should be on there as well. Thank you. I am also looking into how he was repatriated. Just retired so plenty of time. Kind regards, David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonMc Posted 16 November , 2019 Share Posted 16 November , 2019 https://www.findmypast.ie/transcript?id=GBM%2FMCI%2F2321834 Thats the FMP link which as you have an account will show what I can see about him there. I'd recommend having a look an ancestry for a month however. My subscription is up at present so I can't confirm if there's anything more there. But if I were you I'd look up the medal index Roll on it it to see his Batallion details. Then you could look at the War diary for that Btn. Diary or Medal Rolls are not on FMP as far as I'm aware. Best of luck with your research! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 16 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2019 Much appreciated. My subscription with FMP is up on the 25th so I will look at changing. Many thanks for your time. Much appreciated. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 November , 2019 Share Posted 17 November , 2019 Forces War Record has this if it helps First Name: C Surname: Lawn Incident Details: War Office Daily List No.5775 Report Date: 18/01/1919 Rank: Private Service Number: 202249 Casualty Listed As: Released Prisoner of War from Germany, arrived in England Next Of Kin Address: Great Yarmouth Service: British Army Primary Unit: Oxfordshire And Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Archive Reference: NLS 1919_WList77 Oxfordshire And Buckinghamshire Light Infantry during World War 1 Since 1815 the balance of power in Europe had been maintained by a series of treaties. In 1888 Wilhelm II was crowned ‘German Emperor and King of Prussia’ and moved... read more here >> Collection: British Army daily reports (missing, dead, wounded & POWs) WWI First Name: C Surname: Lawn Incident Details: War Office Daily List No.5382 Report Date: 05/10/1917 Rank: Private Service Number: 202249 Casualty Listed As: Missing Next Of Kin Address: Great Yarmouth Service: British Army Primary Unit: Oxfordshire And Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Archive Reference: NLS 1917_WList10 First Name: C Surname: Lawn Incident Details: War Office Daily List No.5401 Report Date: 27/10/1917 Information: Reports received from various sources. Rank: Private Service Number: 202249 Casualty Listed As: Previously reported missing, now reported Prisoner of War in German Hands Next Of Kin Address: Great Yarmouth Service: British Army Primary Unit: Oxfordshire And Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Archive Reference: NLS 1917_WList13 Interesting to note his DoB changes on German documentation from 1880 to 1881 George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 18 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2019 Hello George, Many thanks for your kind response. I have just retired and have spent a good many hours setting up my family tree, as you can imagine. The information has really helped as I never knew my grandfather. He was killed in a road accident before I was born. Yes, I did notice the change of DoB. I now have two brothers to find who have disappeared from the records. I have found persons with same name in army records but unfortunately those records do not give their place of birth. Once again many thanks for your time. Kind regards, David David Charles Lawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 18 November , 2019 Share Posted 18 November , 2019 Charles Robert Lawn was in 2/4th Battalion Ox and Bucks (POW record and second service number). In August 1917 the battalion were in the St Julian area. On 22 August at 4.45 am the battalion began an attack (references are to the map and image at the link below) on a line from square 7 c (just below the word Winnipeg) down to a point in square 13 b (the top right quadrant) against the objective, the area where the word London can be seen about 900 yards to the north east. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.8950&lon=2.9871&layers=101464909&right=BingHyb The action is described in detail in the war diary here at the National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355356 On Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1348_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_3067_1-00210 Casualties on the day were 26 killed 74 wounded and 44 missing. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 19 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2019 Hi Max, Your input is much appreciated. Beginning to piece it all together now. Kind Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 19 November , 2019 Share Posted 19 November , 2019 David, Always worth trying the Soldiers of Oxfordshire Museum at Woodstock. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 19 November , 2019 Share Posted 19 November , 2019 Loose end perhaps (you were looking for his place of birth). The POW record says Tritton Suffolk 19 Feb 1881. You may have noticed this already! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 19 November , 2019 Share Posted 19 November , 2019 (edited) I'm sure you are already aware but he was born Fritton, Suffolk. The birth of a Charles Robert Lawn, mothers' maiden name Gilbert, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Mutford Civil Registration District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1879, so neither year is correct in the POW record. Mutford Civil Registation District included the Civil parish of Fritton. https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/mutford.html He was baptised at Fritton on the 13th April 1879. Parents were Clement Waters Lawn and Martha Anne Lawn. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFH1-2Q8 (The marriage of a Clement Lawn and a Martha Ann Gilbert was recorded in the Mutford District in Q4 of 1861). 1881 Census of England & Wales. Charles, aged 2, born Fritton. With family living at the Post Office, Fritton. Father Clement W., (aged 40, born Burgh Castle, Suffolk*) was a Grocer and General Shopkeeper. Mother Martha A, aged 38, was born Moulton, Norfolk. The couple have 8 other children. *Until 1900 the boundary of Suffolk went up to the south bank of the Yare and so included Gorleston and Burgh Castle. These moved into Norfolk after that date. 1891 Census of England & Wales. Charles R, aged 12, a scholar, born Fritton. With family living at the Post Office, 4 The Street, Fritton. Father Clement W, (50, Grocer), mother Martha a, (48). They have three other children living with them. Charles is their youngest child. 1901 Census of England & Wales. The Lawns, Clement W, (60) and Martha Ann, (58) were still living at the Post Office, Fritton. Two of their children were living with them but no obvious sign of Charles. Edit - most likely the 22 year old Charles Lawn, a Domestic Groom born Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, who was recorded as a boarder at 36 Harriett Mews, Chelsea, London. Several of the householders in the mews including at number 36 are shown as Domestic Coachman and have other Domestic Servants living with them, so possibly Charles is living in the servants quarters of his employer. The death of Clement Waters Lawn, aged 61, was recorded in the Mutford District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1902. The 1902 Probabte Calendar shows him as a Grocer of Fritton, Suffolk, died 24th April 1902. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar 1911 Census of England & Wales. Charles Robert Lawn, aged 30, born Fritton, single and a Domestic Coachman. He was living at 90 Trafalgar Road, West Gorleston, Great Yarmouth. This was the household of his widowed mother Martha Mary Ann Lawn, (68). Martha states she has been married 48 years and has had 10 children, of which 9 were then still alive. The other child living with her at that point was her unmarried son Clement William Lawn, (aged 34, born Fritton), a House Agents Clerk. The death of a Martha M A Lawn, aged 73 was recorded in the Great Yarmouth District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1916. There is no obvious Civil Probate for her, so don't know who dealt with her affairs. So still leaves it a bit of a mystery who the next of kin was on the POW, although I assume its a sister "Miss Lawn". The only likely marriage I can see for a Charles R Lawn doesn't happen until 1920 in Northamptonshire, which if correct closes off the possibility of using marriage and birth certificates to identify his rank and regiment at the relevant point in time - I assume he'd left the Army by then? I see his next of kin on the POW card was living in Great Yarmouth. I don't know if through your subscription level on FMP you currently have access to newspapers, but I believe they are tied in to the British Newspaper Archive. If not you can subscribe directly to the BNA, but before doing so I'd suggest try it out at your local Public Library first if you are in the UK - the software used is, shall we say, "quirky". Most Public Libraries have subscribed. Reason for mentioning it is that at least one Yarmouth title for the Great War Years, the Yarmouth Independent, is online through the BNA and has quite a few pictures of 'local' men who were serving. Hope that helps, Peter Edited 19 November , 2019 by PRC Add additional 1901 Census details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 19 November , 2019 Share Posted 19 November , 2019 (edited) On 16/11/2019 at 13:50, JasonMc said: His medal index card is available for free on ancestry and shows he has two numbers 5799 and 202249. What I don't think has been picked up on is that as a member of a Territorial Force Battalion he would have received a new six digit service number in the opening two months of 1917. While not exactly unique a number starting 202xxx would most likely indicate he was the 2nd line unit of the 4th Battalion of his regiment, or the 2nd/4th. To check this out I took a look at Medal Index Cards for the 10 service numbers either side of 202249, as confirming he was part of a renumbering means you can identify the unit he was with at that time. The check actually brought up a number of things that might provide some insight to you. 202239 No match. 202240 No match 202241 Albert A Buckett ex 5785 202242 John H F Corkett then Labour Corps 435310 (probably why no earlier number shown on MIC). Medals issued by Labour Corps. 202243 James Cherrill ex 5788 202244 Alfred E Franklin ex 5790. 202245 Alfred Fowler then Labour Corps 346723 (probably why no earlier number shown on MIC). Enlisted 28th November 1915. Discharged as a result of wounds 8th January 1918.There is a separate card showing an Alfred J Fowler as 5791 and then 346723 Labour Corps. 202246 No match 202247 John Hardwick Heseldine Enlistment date 26th November 1915. Discharged as a result of wounds 25th March 1918. 202248 Albert J Kirby ex 5798. CWGC 1/4th. Died 16th October 1917. Tyne Cot Memorial. 202249 Charles Lawn ex 5799 202250 Wallace Morton ex 5804 202251 William Mundy ex 5805 202252 Edgar Nash ex 5806 CWGC 1st/1st . Died 15/10/1917. Buried Mount Huon Military Cemetery. 202253 Edward C Painter ex 5809 then Royal Engineer 495566 & WR/326764. Medals issued by RE and on their SWB Roll, 202254 Albert Pace then Royal Berkshire 220532, (probably why no earlier number shown on MIC). 202255 Alfred Penwill ex 5812. 202256 Harry Summers ex 5815 Card marked 2/4th OBLI and “Died 26.3.17”. CWGC 1st/4th. Died 26/03/1917. Now buried Roisel Communal Cemetery Extension. Most likely buried on the battlefield, possibly by the Germans. 202257 Frederick P Stanton then 55206 Royal Warwickshire, (probably why no earlier number shown on MIC). 202258 Albert John Tugwood then 73068 Royal Defence Corps, (probably why no earlier number shown on MIC). 202259 Frederick George Wright ex 5819, (on MIC but not in NA Discovery Catalogue) Enlistment date 21st February 1916. Discharged as a result of wounds 24th April 1917. So 202245 Fowler, (28th November 1915) 202247 Heseldine (26th November 1915) and 202259 Wright (21st February 1916) have enlistment date detail. I don't think that means this group of 21 men enlisted between the end of November 1915 and February 1916. In fact what I think they are are Derby Scheme men. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/ In an attempt to stave off consciption, those who signed up still had some say in which unit they joined. They would be in the Army for one day, then discharged to the reserve, and returning to their civilian role to await a subsequent mobilisation. For most single men this would come during the first three months of 1916. How this was treated by the clerks completing the records varies, some treat the first day of service as the day they enlisted and then show a gap when there was no pay due and it didn't count towards pension, while others went for the date of mobilisation which is I suspect the case of Frederick George Wright. As you can see from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records some of these men served with other Battalions , so as suggested above you might want to check out the Service Medal Roll for the Victory and British War Medal to see which Battalions they served with in a Theatre of War - hopefully the OBLI medal rolls are that detailed. They are only on Ancestry. It might be worthwhile checking the individuals listed above to see if they have any surviving service records, as the early parts of their service may at help give you some idea of what Charles was up to. The 2nd/4th OBLI had been in France since the 24th May 1916, so given that he seems to have been part of a group pre-renumbering, he may actually have gone out with them rather than being a subsequent draft. Hope that makes sense, Peter Edited 19 November , 2019 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 11 hours ago, PRC said: would most likely indicate he was the 2nd line unit of the 4th Battalion of his regiment, or the 2nd/4th. On 18/11/2019 at 10:10, MaxD said: Charles Robert Lawn was in 2/4th Battalion Ox and Bucks (POW record and second service number). Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadbrewer Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 Don't know if you've seen this before...from The Banbury Guardian March 30th 1950, courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 26 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2019 Yes, I have it and thank you for your time. Together with the Coroners Report. Now looking for his three brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 26 November , 2019 Share Posted 26 November , 2019 (edited) Assume the brothers you refer to are James Charles b 1863 Herbert George b c1867 Clement William b 1875 The 2 older ones especially may have been too old to either have served or served abroad. CW would be possible JC may be the one that died - there is a death for a James Lawn living in Rumburgh in July 1894 aged 31. Cannot prove the link at present Edited 26 November , 2019 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 26 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2019 Hi Mark, Appreciate that but not the same people. James @ Rhumburg was born at St Lawrence not Fritton and was married to a Mary Ann. There just doesn't appear to be any death records for HG, JC or TW. I will keep at it. Once again, Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 26 November , 2019 Share Posted 26 November , 2019 James Charles was no longer living with the family on the 1881 Census of England and Wales although he was with them in 1871, aged 8 and born Fritton. In 1881 he is recorded lodging at 8 Albion Mews North, Paddington and was working as a Domestic Groom. After that he seems to disappear from the Census records and there is no obvious death record in England & Wales. Older brothers that were on the 1881 Census of England and Wales were Herbert, (14), Thomas, (11), Clement, (5) and George, (4), all born Fritton. Herbert was Herbert George on the 1871 Census. Again, no obvious match after 1881 and no obvious death record in England and Wales. Thomas, aged 21 and an Agricultural Labourer, born Fritton, was recorded lodging at an inn on Fritton Street, Fritton on the 1891 Census. On the 1901 Census, still single, he was recorded as the head of a household at Cheveley Park Stables, Cheveley near Newmarket, Cambridgeshire. He is recorded as a Stableman. Going back to the 1871 Census he was recorded as Thomas William. There is no obvious match for him in the 1911 Census of England & Wales or in the death records for England & Wales. The death of a George Frederick Lawn, aged 13, was recorded in the Mutford District of Suffolk in Q2 of 1890. On the 1911 Census their mother Martha stated she had had 10 children, of which 9 was still alive. If George was the child that died the implication is that all the other brothers were still alive – but where! I can’t see any likely pre-war British Army or Royal Navy records. There are plenty of Lawn’s with the right initials \ right ages heading out of the UK all over the empire in the years after they disappear from the census record, but can't see any likely candidates in the subsequent Great War soldiers service records held by the Australian and Canadian National Archives. Couldn’t see a Medal Index Card, Royal Navy \ Royal Naval Reservist \ Royal Naval Volunteer Reservist record for Clement. Time to put my thinking cap on! Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 27 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2019 Hi Peter, You're exactly right and I thank your for your efforts in this. Finding the whereabouts of the brothers has been my problem for the past 8 months. I do have photographs of the three but there are no names. Two were taken at Stuarts at 47 Brompton Road,The photographers are W & J Stuart at 47-49 Brompton Road. Samuel Robert Stuart was listed as a photographer in the 1861 census, living at Queen's Buildings just off the Brompton Road. The other was at Shermans, Gt Yarmouth. 3984 is on the back of the photo, probably an order number but the shop is no longer there. The business is referred to as ‘George Sherman & Sons’ from 1900 onwards. A cabinet mount, dating from the late 1880s or the 1890s, gives the address as 'Sherman's Pier Studio, corner of Nelson & Regent Roads, Great Yarmouth'. (Regent Road studios). Now closed. Once again many thanks, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadbrewer Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 A tree on Ancestry is showing Clement William Lawn dying in Gt Yarmouth in 1954. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 1 hour ago, DCL said: Finding the whereabouts of the brothers has been my problem for the past 8 months. Bit of a longshot, but as the father had been the Grocer in the village of Fritton for over 30 years, there may be a report of the death \ an obituary \ something in the Births, Marraiges & Deaths Personal announcments of the local newspapers following the death of Clement Waters Lawn on the 24th April 1902. You never know what little snippets can slip in, from locations, daughter-in-laws first names or the existance of grandchildren, all of which give you another angle to work back from. I also assume no likely matches have been found on the 1939 National Register, available on Ancestry & FMP? Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonMc Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 There's a few articles about Clement Waters Lawn being fined for treatment of a horse and the following legal notice available on FMP. Site has crashed for me at the minute but will post up links if there are further obit notices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCL Posted 27 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2019 Wow, Bit of a …… wasn't he? I await with anticipation. All the best, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonMc Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 https://search.findmypast.ie/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0002000%2f18890202%2f113 - this shows a fine for leaving his horse and cart unattended. Yarmouth Mercury 02 February 1889 https://search.findmypast.ie/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001842%2f18950328%2f044 - there might be more here, it's from Eastern Evening News 28 March 1895 where he has an altercation with a cousin, Frederick Botwright https://search.findmypast.ie/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001943%2f18850124%2f088 - Court case where he denies being involved in a cart accident He seems a colourful fellow! Unfortunately I can't find an obituary. But maybe you might get a name in the following to follow up another branch as PRC suggests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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