Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps

[Gartht]

I’m researching my great uncle, Stanley Barrat scrivener. He was in the Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps and was killed in June of 1917. This happened one month before the regiment split into the Heavy Branch and the MGC. He was a member of B company. I’m wanting to find out more about the movements of B company on his death date and leading up to it. I believe  they went into messines but except for that I can’t seem to find much else. It would be great for any help or knowledge! Cheers

[Fattyowls]

Welcome to the forum Garth. As I'm sure you know the MGC Heavy Branch was what became the Tank Corps the following month. He is buried in Messines Ridge cemetery having been most likely killed during the brilliant operation that took the position from the Germans on 7th June 1917. The forum has a group of world class tank experts who will hopefully be along to give you more details. Messines Ridge cemetery is an impressive place and includes the New Zealand Memorial to the Missing of the battle at the entrance. I have some photos of it but none of the part where Stanley is buried. There is quite a lot of information on the CWGC site for him, including where his body was found which might yield a location.

 

Pete.

 

[sotonmate]

Garth

 

I have dug up a previous post I made in Jan 2019 about trying to find a War Diary for, among other units, B Company, and it explains that I looked in the old War Diary registers at Kew and failed to find a reference to more than one Company. Member delta is one of the enthusiastic tank experts here and you might want to ask him what he knows.

I see that your subject was exhumed from his grave at Messines, ref N.35.b.2.3 and re-interred in his current location at Messines Ridge cemetery in post-war concentration of graves.

Edited 11 November , 2019 by sotonmate

[david murdoch]

He's noted on CWGC as being 206108 Heavy Branch - however that number was a later Tank Corps renumbering (as he died before Tank Corps existed). On soldiers died records he is noted as being 15843 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry. On his list of soldiers effects and medal rolls  it notes his actual service number when he died as being 350 MGC - this actually being an early Motor Machine Gun Service number. His 14/15 Star roll notes he was in 8th MMG Battery so he would have transferred to Heavy Branch and  joined B Battalion in November 1916 when 8th MMG was disbanded.

By his MMGS number he transferred to them in January 1915 and went to France with 8th Battery 22/5/1915.

CWGC is showing 12 men of Heavy Branch died that day but he is the only one buried at Messines Ridge - as posted above he was relocated there from a battlefield grave. The location of the map reference and the date should assist to narrow down which company and possibly which tank he served with. Newspaper report in the Evening Dispatch of 22nd June 1917 notes he was killed inside a tank by a chance shot through a loophole which killed him instantly. Apparently this information was received in a letter from  Lieut. H.H. Clarke - possibly his crew commander,

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/battleofmessinesridge

 

Edited 12 November , 2019 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

Memorial plaque for him in St James's Church , The Green, Dadlington, Hinckley and Bosworth.

 

[Fattyowls]

I plugged the body recovery coordinates from the CWGC site and got a location SSW of the Kruisstraat craters roughly equidistant between the cemeteries at RE Farm and Pond Farm. I need to check it as it was way past my bedtime when I did it and I probably need the supervision of a grown up. I'll have another cup of coffee and retry.

 

Pete.

[WhiteStarLine]

If he was in Clarke's tank, then they ditched in O.25 near Ochre Trench (top right of modern map) and his body was recovered in N.35 (bottom left of modern map).

If you ever want to visit, Google Maps can navigate you to them:

[johntaylor]

Hi Garth, welcome to the Forum, and a good starting point for you would be the War Diary for 2nd Battalion Tank Corps (which was formerly B Battalion of the Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps) - this can be downloaded from the National Archives website, but has been broken up into sections without a detailed description for what is included in each. I would suggest the second part would be a good starting point as it covers May-July 1917: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/08b78ca9185b406e9841c2e12e3c0970

 

There are also two very good recent books covering the activities of B Bn, including the Battle of Messines. One is Tank Action in the Great War by Ian Verrinder, who is often on the Forum: https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Tank-Action-in-the-Great-War-Hardback/p/1889

 

The other is Veteran Volunteer based on the wartime writings of Frank Vans Agnew, who was a tank commander in B Bn: https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Veteran-Volunteer-Hardback/p/6107

 

My own area of expertise is D and E Battalions which didn't take part in Messines, so I don't have any detailed first-hand knowledge. But I see that Ian Verrinder's book quotes a detailed account of Clarke's tank B60 from the War Diary - apparently this got so far forward that it was renamed the "Wytschaete Express". Corporal Scrivener's name also appears in a Roll of Honour at the back of the book.

 

I hope this is helpful, John

Edited 12 November , 2019 by johntaylor

[johntaylor]

Further to my message Garth, I've been trying to find the source of the information about Lieut Clarke. You say he was the author of the letter of condolence to the family but this isn't stated in the newspaper article attached. You included a link to the Landships website but I couldn't find the information there either. Could you tell me how you know Lieut Clarke wrote the letter please?

 

Many thanks, John

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

Further to my message Garth, I've been trying to find the source of the information about Lieut Clarke. You say he was the author of the letter of condolence to the family but this isn't stated in the newspaper article attached. You included a link to the Landships website but I couldn't find the information there either. Could you tell me how you know Lieut Clarke wrote the letter please?

 

Many thanks, John

The reference to Lieut. H. H Clarke came  from Leicestershire War Memorial Project.

I've found another more detailed article from Leicester Daily Post 23/6/1917 In this his name appears to be B.R. Clarke rather than H.H. These may be red herrings  but definitely Lt Clarke and the way it reads (to me) Stanley was one of his crewmen. Also the reference to the tank "did  better than any other"  is another hint to him being in B60 "Wytschaete Express"

Am I right in thinking Bruce Reginal Clarke?

Edited 12 November , 2019 by david murdoch

[Fattyowls]

1 hour ago, WhiteStarLine said:

If he was in Clarke's tank, then they ditched in O.25 near Ochre Trench (top right of modern map) and his body was recovered in N.35 (bottom left of modern map).

 

WSL, The recovery location is what I found, good to know I wasn't completely in the wrong place. New Tmapper version looking very good by the way.

 

Pete.

[Gartht]

I am extremely gracious to all the research you chaps have done. I live in stoke Golding which is a minute drive from Dadlington. I’ve seen the plaque in the church a few times and have a picture of him( and the plaque) proudly displayed in our house. The death of him meant that there was no longer a son able to take over the farm(hall farm Dadlington) and around 1928 it had to be sold off. I’ve always wondered what and how he was killed. I shall definitely try to visit his grave in years to come.

[johntaylor]

Hi, the newspaper article is a great find as Clarke was certainly his tank commander - we can also identify the driver of the tank as 1786 Pte L Donaldson, who was awarded the Military Medal for his part in the battle. The other unnamed officer quoted in the article was probably Major Bryce, who Ian Verrinder names as the commander of No 6 Company. It would be very interesting to see the photo of Corporal Scrivener so we can put a face to the name.  Many thanks for drawing our attention to his sad and courageous story.

 

All the best, John

[Gartht]

Here he is looking not much older than myself (I’ve just hit 19). I do have a question, is there a way to find out if he was in a male or female version of the mark iv?

Edited 12 November , 2019 by Gartht

[Fattyowls]

Great photo, thanks Garth.

 

Pete.

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, Gartht said:

Here he is looking not much older than myself (I’ve just hit 19). I do have a question, is there a way to find out if he was in a male or female version of the mark iv?

Great photo - probably taken early 1915 when he had just joined the MMGS and before he went to France. From what I've seen in his number range he was probably only with the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry for  three to four months. When the MMGS  was formed they transferred men who had already enlisted and had an interest in motorcycles, then from December 1914 started recruiting directly. In this photo you can also just make out his Motor Machine Guns shoulder title. From 8th MMG Battery War Diary 12/1/1916 there is a line  "A/Bdr Scrivener slightly wounded".

[johntaylor]

Great photo Garth - many thanks for posting. Regarding finding out whether 2862 was a male or female tank, this all depends on the information preserved in the War Diary. These sometimes contain detailed lists of tanks, or summaries of the accounts written by tank commanders ('Battle History Sheets'), or diagrams showing what happened to each tank during an attack ('Battlegraphs'), any of which should indicate whether each tank was male or female. Sometimes there are lists of how much ammunition each tank fired, and obviously if the list includes 6-pounder shells then it was a male.

 

I haven't checked the B Bn War Diaries to see exactly what's in them, but to judge from what I've seen quoted then they must contain quite a lot of detail. However there's one caveat - Landships Forum is usually pretty comprehensive and if the website doesn't show this information, it may not be shown in the War Diaries. The only way to be sure is to go through all the available records.

 

All the best, John

[delta]

Sorry I have been "off-net".

Roy Martin's site (Google Landships) gives the following information 

 

The Tanks at Messines. 7th June 1917.

6 Company. B Battalion with 25th and 36th Divisions, and the II ANZAC Corps, 2nd Army

6 Company intended to get 12 tanks into action on 7th June 1917 (W21)

 

Orders

One section to support 25th Divisions attack on the Black line immediately North of New Zealand Division sector.

One section to support 36th Divisions attack on Wytschaete and the Black line to the North of 25th Division sector.

Third Section in reserve with II ANZAC Corps, to start at Zero + 1 hour and reach a line 200-300 yards beyond the Black line 

 

12 section - Capt. Butcher

B56, 2034, 2Lt Morrison

B58, 2013, 2Lt Hamlet

B59, 2694, 2Lt Palmer

B60, 2682, "The Wytschacte Express",  2Lt Clarke

 

2682 crossed the Blue line on time and led the 1 Munster Fusiliers of 47th Brigade, 16th Division,   into Wytschaete, at 7:40am, a tank from "A" battalion (A27, 2681) operating on its left. The tank did not fire in the village as it was surrounded by British infantry, fortunately the Germans were surrendering readily. The tank then went with the infantry to the Black Line where it waited whilst the infantry consolidated before turning to rally, whilst returning, at 11:30am, the tank ditched in between the Black Line and German Front Line at O25b8.4 (W2a) it was eventually unditched and returned. The tank fired on the enemy . (note - this report is copied directly from the B Bn War Diary) 

 

Rob's map is also useful

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/battleofmessinesridge/7-june-1917---4-company/7-june-1917---b-battalion---map

 

Can't find details of its sex either at Messines or at Cambrai 

 

Edited 13 November , 2019 by delta

[JOVE23]

On 12/11/2019 at 07:15, WhiteStarLine said:

If he was in Clarke's tank, then they ditched in O.25 near Ochre Trench (top right of modern map) and his body was recovered in N.35 (bottom left of modern map).

If you ever want to visit, Google Maps can navigate you to them:

I wonder why they are so far apart? I would think a person who was killed in the tank would be buried close to where they ditched but maybe not?

[delta]

Ian Verrinder's database states that Scrivener was a Lewis gunner; this does not mean that he was in a female tank when he was killed 

As the Tank NCO, he should have been controlling the crew in the fighting compartment, including indicating targets. rather than operating the guns themselves.

 

[delta]

Regarding the location of the grave, the B Bn record  says that the tank rallied after it was unditched (the site of which was vulnerable to German artillery fire. . 

I would expect that the body was bought back in the tank and then buried in a safe spot. 

[johntaylor]

Hi Stephen, I agree the locations shown must indicate that his body was brought back when the tank was recovered. However I was a little surprised by the suggestion that he was responsible for controlling the crew and directing fire rather than being a gunner, as I've never come across this in a Mark IV.  My understanding is the eight man crew was made up of a commander, driver, two gearsmen, and either four Lewis gunners in a female tank, or two gunners and two loaders/Lewis gunners in a male tank. There were sometimes other men on board, e.g. company commander or an infantry runner, but I've never come across what you describe - though I'm always happy to be corrected!

 

I thought it would be helpful to attach the relevant section from B Bn's War Diary - this is a transcription from Ian Verrinder's book, and I hope he won't mind me sharing this.

 

All the best, John

 

Edited 14 November , 2019 by johntaylor

[delta]

The use of the Tank NCO to control the gunners is described by Basil Henriques in his lecture at Bovington in March 1917. 

He recommended that the NCO was positioned on the left hand side of the tank so that he could be seen by the skipper.

 

 

[johntaylor]

I'd be interested to see the actual wording Stephen - surely he wasn't suggesting they took a ninth crewman?

 

John 

[delta]

I will dig out the lecture,  find the relevant element and send it to you 

I certainly don't believe he was suggesting that a crew consisted of nine men in action.  That said  in 1916, each crew had one spare crewman and a few tanks went into action  on 15 Sep, with all nine on board.