Austrian or Weimar Stahlhelm? Or what?

[trajan]

Spotted this at the Antika pazar, and bought it thinking - what is it? Clearly not a German M17 or M18, with the extra rivets holding the chin-strap loops in place, and certainly not a WW2 thing with those bolts on the side. Looks to be close to an Austrian M17, or is it Weimar? Or some foreign piece? I did consider it might be a reproduction - is it? If so, then no great loss as it cost me only TL 100 = £14.00...!!!

 

Sorry for the poor photographs - I can try to get some better ones some day soon... It fits my kids' heads at size 56, as marked inside.

 

Anyway, whatever it is, even if a reproduction, all help and information greatly appreciated!

 

Julian

 

[trajan]

Now, that's odd! I had an e-mail notification of a reply from Andrew Upton yesterday but it hasn't appeared here yet! It gave me an excellent link - 

 

"Looks like a typical late interwar rework of a M1918 or similar - have a look through: "https://alexanderandsonsrestorations.com/whats-inside-german-helmet-liners-1920-1940/

 

Thanks Andrew - but where has your reply gone to?

[GWF1967]

6 hours ago, trajan said:

Now, that's odd! I had an e-mail notification of a reply from Andrew Upton yesterday but it hasn't appeared here yet! It gave me an excellent link - 

 

"Looks like a typical late interwar rework of a M1918 or similar - have a look through: "https://alexanderandsonsrestorations.com/whats-inside-german-helmet-liners-1920-1940/

 

Thanks Andrew - but where has your reply gone to?

On screen it also said Andrew had replied. !  Thanks for the link.

Edited 9 November , 2019 by GWF1967

[Andrew Upton]

6 hours ago, trajan said:

Now, that's odd! I had an e-mail notification of a reply from Andrew Upton yesterday but it hasn't appeared here yet! It gave me an excellent link - 

 

"Looks like a typical late interwar rework of a M1918 or similar - have a look through: "https://alexanderandsonsrestorations.com/whats-inside-german-helmet-liners-1920-1940/

 

Thanks Andrew - but where has your reply gone to?

 

I posted a reply, went to edit it, and my computer threw something of a wobbly in the middle and I had to close it down. So not sure exactly... 

[trajan]

OK, so where were we... I have been so busy that I have not been able to examine this one any further!

 

German or A-H? An M16 or M18? I have the liner more-or-less sorted out thanks to Andrew...

 

Whatever, not bad for only TL 100 = £14.00...!!!

 

Trajan

[trenchtrotter]

Its not a M16 or 18. Possible Bulgarian or other Balkan state. Second war type liner?

 

 

 

 

[trajan]

Well, apparently not Bulgarian. They used German made ones in WW1, and then introduced their own version based on the German model in 1936 or so. Similar to this as far as I can see but certainly not the same.

[trajan]

Did Austria make its own Stahlhelm?

[Hans k.]

On 23/11/2019 at 05:25, trajan said:

Did Austria make its own Stahlhelm?

 

The helmet in question is one of many commercial "civic" style helmets that the Germans manufactured between the wars for firefighters, police units, Red Cross, factory guards etc.  I'm not exactly sure which category of civilian model this helmet would fall under as I don't collect interwar helmets. The liner and chinstrap are also typical non-military variants. Although their form is inspired by the WW1 German Stahlhelm their design, components and overall appearance differs greatly from wartime helmets. 

 

Regarding your question about whether Austria made its own Stahlhelm, if you're referring to the interwar period, they did, but even though it's a subject I'm not very familiar with, I'm quite sure that the OP helmet is German and not one of these Austrian interwar helmets. 

 

 

 

 

For those not familiar with WW1 Austro-Hungarian helmets, below is a brief overview.

 

During WW1 Austria-Hungary manufactured two models based on the German Stahlhelm and, as far as I remember reading, had to pay Eisenhüttenwerke Thale for this privilege, since the Thale Ironworks, which was the premier German helmet manufacturer, owned the patent rights.

 

Austria briefly manufactured their own design of helmet in limited numbers in 1917 prior to the introduction of their German clones. This helmet was designed and manufactured by Metal-Warenfabrik A Krupp AG, Berndorf and is an interesting topic in and of itself.

 

WW1 Austrian helmets were painted Isonzo brown instead of Field Gray.

 

Austro-Hungary's first and most common German style model was the Stahlhelm nach deutschem Muster (German pattern steel helmet) which was introduced in 1917. It is generally referred to by collectors as the Austrian M17. It used a liner based closely on the German model. The only real difference was in that it used a cloth chinstrap instead of leather. 

 

This heavily worn helmet still has its original issued helmet cover; these were distributed to assault troops in limited numbers.

 

 

 

In 1918, the Berndorfer Metal-Warenfabrik A Krupp AG produced a new helmet based on the German model, known to collectors as the Austrian M18. This helmet did away with the two front liner pins, instead fastening the liner at either side of the shell and, as with the other model, at the rear. The chinstrap on this helmet was made of hemp and had a friction buckle instead of a prong buckle. This helmet is sometimes erroneously referred to as the Hungarian M18 by collectors. These helmets are marked with the Berndorf "bear" logo and were manufactured exclusively in shell size 64. They are very scarce.

 

 

 

 

All 4 WW1 German helmet/liner production models 1916, 1917 and 1918 (and chinstraps) for comparison purposes:

 

M16 

 

M17

 

M18

 

M18 with Ear Cut-Outs 

Edited 5 December , 2019 by Hans k.

[Hans k.]

Trajan,

 

I intended to send you this response via PM but I got the notification that "trajan doesn't receive messages" when I hit send. 

 

I didn't want to discuss post-war German helmets in detail on this forum, and so devoted my previous answer to WW1 helmets in order to show that any possibility of your helmet being a WW1 helmet or even a post-war refurbished WW1 helmet is out of the question. 

 

The Germans manufactured a huge variety of commercial lightweight helmets like yours between wars. I couldn't find an exact model like it online in my brief search but i just wanted to point out that the liner most closely resembles those found in many Luftschutz helmets. Aside from the design, quality and construction of the suspension system, one big indicator that the liner in your helmet isn't a military one is the perforated leather in the forehead area. This feature is never seen in German military grade helmets from this era.

 

Here is an example of a similar civilian grade liner in a Luftschutz helmet. 

 

https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Luftwaffe/photos/L011581.html

 

I hope this clarifies things. 

 

Hans

[trajan]

On 05/12/2019 at 02:49, Hans k. said:

 

The helmet in question is one of many commercial "civic" style helmets that the Germans manufactured between the wars for firefighters, police units, Red Cross, factory guards etc.  I'm not exactly sure which category of civilian model this helmet would fall under as I don't collect interwar helmets. The liner and chinstrap are also typical non-military variants. Although their form is inspired by the WW1 German Stahlhelm their design, components and overall appearance differs greatly from wartime helmets.  ...

 

4 hours ago, Hans k. said:

Trajan,

 

I intended to send you this response via PM but I got the notification that "trajan doesn't receive messages" when I hit send. 

 

Many thanks Hans,

 

Sorry for this late reply - with work and two young kids involved in tennis and football, weekends are usually the only time I can find an hour or so to reply to posts on GWF! I don't know why my GWF email system was locked - I certainly did not so this. I wonder if I have inadvertently transgressed GWF rules? Easily done!

 

Anyway, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your detailed answers and the ID of this mystery helmet of mine. In fact it was on sale with a Luftschutz helmet lacking its badge which I didn't buy. More to the point, no matter its precise ID, this one still looks good next to my two other helmets on top of my bookcase, both WW2, one German, one USA, along with a German gas-mask container, all three items picked up years ago when I was doing fieldwork in southern Tunisia...

 

Again, many thanks,

 

Julian

[trajan]

15 minutes ago, trajan said:

I don't know why my GWF email system was locked - I certainly did not so this. I wonder if I have inadvertently transgressed GWF rules? Easily done!

 

Calumny, calumny, hope that GWF don't get it in for me! 

 

My mail box was full.......

Edited 7 December , 2019 by trajan