Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

stevej60

Odd information on burial return.

Recommended Posts

stevej60

Hi Folks,I was looking over some information on CWGC site regarding a local man Bdr.J Hutchinson RGA.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1615625/HUTCHINSON, JOHN ROBERT

I was surprised as he is recorded on the Menin Gate to see a concentration document for Artillery Wood Cemetery included,I looked at others on the document.

L/cl Toyne is on the Loos Memorial.

Pte. Pitcher is on the Tyne Cot Memorial.

Gnr F Peter is buried in Vlamertinghe Cemetery.

Pte R Chadwick buried in Artillery wood Cemetery.

Pte W Hall in artillery wood Cemetery.on the first page of his burial return can be found all the other's

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/100996/hall,-/#&gid=null&pid=1

wondered what anyone's thoughts were or is this a common occurrence ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mark1959

There may be clues on the concentration form. 

Means of iD is Mem X - i.e. Memorial Cross

The 3 you say have known graves have their ticks crossed through. So I suspect the memorial cross said one thing but they only found 3 sets of remains,  The form should have been annotated. Probably a clerical error

Edited by Mark1959

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marilyne

So one wound definitely find a "believed to be buried in this cemetery" stone in Artillery Wood for Hutchinson, Toyne and Pitcher??

the 7th guy on the burial return, Pvt Welsh, is also on Tyne Cot.

What strikes me as odd is that the four that are on memorials are not all on the same, as the seven men were found Under ONE cross (or am I mistaken there??)

 

M.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AOK4

According to me, each man had originally a memorial cross. This didn't mean they were ever buried there (so no "believed to be buried" needed). Some remains may have been found and identified later when clearing the battlefield. Others could not be positively identified, so these last names were put on the memorial to the missing according to where and when they had died.

 

Jan

Edited by AOK4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

I’m with Jan here, what we see in the CoG are individual Memorial Crosses which could have been brought into the cemetery anytime after their deaths. Gunner Peter (Vlamertinghe NBC was one of six from the battery killed that day, they are all buried side by side). I have all the Burial Returns for Artillery Wood as I have already identified an Unknown in this cemetery, I shall have a look later to see if any further light can be shed on the matter.

 

J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevej60

Thanks for the replies folks,Jay hope something turns up be interesting to see if anything does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Having looked through all the CoGs and GRs for Artillery Wood Cemetery I count 29 Memorial Crosses, these are not crosses that were brought into the cemetery post war and placed in the Memorial Plot. I believe these 29 crosses existed in the cemetery during the war, DGRE registered or unregistered I cannot say and it's difficult to explain how the crosses came to be there. Of these 29 crosses 6 have known graves (although 1 is proving very elusive to find, other than what is recorded on his cross I can find absolutely nothing for Gnr 109383 JR White, 459th Bty RFA, 16/08/17). Only one of the 6 names has a further CoG-BR, his body was recovered from an unmarked grave during March 1920 around 1000 yards in an adjacent square to Artillery Wood Cemetery, his remains were re-interred at New Irish Farm Cemetery, of the remaining five 2 are buried in Artillery Wood, 1 at Vlamertighe NBC and 1 at Duhallow ADS the last cannot yet be identified (JR White above, his CoG entry is ticked and crossed as are the other five who have known graves). It appears from the information available from the CWGC cloud that when these 29 graves were opened post war no bodies were found and in some cases if not all these empty graves were used for concentration burials. There are 40 Special Memorials in the cemetery split between 16 believed to be buried in the here and 24 known to be buried - actual grave unknown, there are 1307 burials here with 506 being unidentified. Other than Bdr Hutchinson having a 'Memorial Cross' in Artillery Wood Cemetery there is nothing to suggest that he was ever buried here, the location of the his cross within the cemetery is recorded as Plot 10, Row F, Grave 18, this grave is now an Unknown, 18th Bn. London Rgt. recovered from his battlefield grave near Vampir Farm east of Zonnebeke during May 1924, this date and the way in which this particular CoG is anotted may suggest it was a concentration burial from the second systematic search of the old battlefields.

It could be that the crosses were dislodged from their original locations and placed in the nearest cemetery or the crosses were placed by units returning from the front line as a memorial to a comrade whose body could not be recovered for whatever reason, although we will never know. Having looked for other members of the 202nd SB RGA the nearest in dates of death are Gnr FA Rees 21/07/17 and Bdr 137764 VM Moore 06/08/17 both buried at Vlamertinghe NBC, a quick scan through the GRs for this cemetery revealed only 2 unknowns and none appear to be concentrations, neither of which is surprising given that this cemetery was some way behind the front line, used by field ambulances and just outside normal artillery range, it should also be noted that because of this range many British artillery units were placed there. I do not know the location of the 202nd SB at this time but there is a WD for the unit here, that covers the relevant dates, it may shed some further light on the situation and the location of the unit at the time although I suspect this to be near Vlamertinghe given the date of death and the nature of the guns of the 202nd SB, which at the time were 4 x 9.2" Howitzers.

 

J

Edited by jay dubaya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevej60

Many thanks Jay,great information and thank's for taking the time to look and offer an explanation,I visited the area a few years ago as my Gt Uncle is recorded

with the missing at Tyne Cot and we visited Vlamertinghe while out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...