7639 L/Cpl William Kemp - 2nd Cameronians

[Grantp08]

Afternoon all.

 

My very first post and not sure if this is even the correct section so apologies in advance 

 

I've been researching a relative, L/Cpl William Kemp 7639, of 2nd Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) who was killed in the trenches at Chapigny near Neuve Chapelle on 11th Jan 1915. Sadly, he has no known grave and is instead recorded on the memorial at Le Touret. However, 3 other Cameronians were killed that same day and I've found that 2 of them have known graves a few miles away at Guards Cemetery in Cuinchy. These 2 graves were part of a concentration exercise in 1920 and the original grave locations were listed as "36 M35 B2.9".  A number of "unknowns" are recorded at same location and it's likely/probable that he is one of them.

 

Can any of the experts here advise me as to where these coordinated plot to?

 

I'm actually visiting the area on Saturday with the aim of walking round Chapigny, Le Touret and the Guards Cemetery so the probable site of his original burial would be the final piece in the jigsaw. 

 

Thanks all.

 

Grant 

[jay dubaya]

Welcome to the forum Grant, good to see you've already done some research so rather than give you the answers I'll point you in the right direction so you can continue, of course please do come back with any questions. The map reference should read 36.M.35.b.2.9

 

How to read a trench map here

 

Maps can be found here with 'overlay' options

 

Once you've located the reference on the map use google earth and street view to give some idea of the lay of the land, it will help when you're there on the ground

 

J

[Grantp08]

Thanks Jay.  Appreciate that. 

 

Very interesting too. I've plotted the burial site to the outskirts of the little copse site which is also closer to the Moated Grange farm than Chapigny Farm. Would they have moved bodies over a kilometer for burial? Who knows.  I had also assumed that area was German held prior to the Battle of Neuve Chapelle a couple of months late!. Anyway, it's on my planned route already so thanks again.

Edited 8 October , 2019 by Grantp08

[jay dubaya]

Glad to help Grant, 

 

I've looked a little further starting with the CoG-BRs (Concentrations of Graves Burial Returns) that gave you the map reference for the original burial locations for Pte's Lone and Robinson and in turn the graves of the unknowns buried around them. Pte Lone rests in plot 9 row J grave 14 and Pte Robinson 9 J 20 both KiA on 11th January 1915 along with Pte Kemp and Pte Breslin who are both now remembered at La Touret Memorial. Pte McIntosh rests in 9 J 15, he was KiA on the 17th of that month. For what it's worth graves 13, 16 and 21 stand out as being probable graves for Kemp, Breslin and Kelly (KiA 14th also La Touret Memorial)) Looking through all the CoGs for the cemetery I count 53 recovered from 36.M35.b.2.9, the count is high enough to think that there may have been an established cemetery there but nothing is recorded in the CoGs nor on the CWGC database. Having looked through some notes and a copy of a 1920 IWGC publication which lists the cemeteries by name and map reference,we find that the following is listed

 

2nd Scottish Rifles Cemetery, Neuve Chapelle, 36.M.35.a.3.6

 

It's close but not that close, there does however appear to be some anomaly that at present I cannot explain. I count only 3 bodies recovered from this exact location and only a handful more in the close surrounding area and none of them Scottish Rifles. The following extract shows of its existence on a map produced by the DGRU for the purpose of cemetery location and recovering the known registered graves. At present I can find no other reference to this cemetery it's just interesting where they've written the name of the cemetery on the map.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 October , 2019 by jay dubaya

[Grantp08]

Thanks again Jay. 

 

It's definitely a bit of a puzzle. Lots of little things don't add up. Prior to the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, the b.2.9 plot was behind the German lines. I appreciate the front lines were more fluid at that time in the war but I can't find any reference to that area being in British hands prior to March 15 - some two months after he was killed.  Unless his body was recovered in action and buried by the Germans but I can't see that being accurate. The unit diary, as you would expect, is very limited and there is no commentary as to the manner of his death. 

 

Ironically, the a.3.6 plot is bang in line with where the 2nd Cameronians attacked at Neuve Chapelle and suffered heavy casualties. You would actually expect there to have been a large number of burials there.

 

To add further intrigue to the mix, the IWM has this pic of a 2nd Cameronians graveyard by an orchard in May 1915 but places it at La Cordonnerie Farm....which is some miles away at Fromelles!   https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205285281

 

Anyway, I did manage my walk of the sites on Saturday which was very humbling.  The area is predominantly now just fields and the only obvious traces beyond the graveyards are the odd German bunker. The attached pic was taken at Guards Cemetery with the row that include Privates Robinson, Lone & McIntosh. I like to think that William is one of the unknowns and beside his comrades. 

 

Cheers all. 

 

 

Edited 15 October , 2019 by Grantp08

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for the update Grant and pleased you had a good yet humbling journey. It does indeed appear to be a bit of a puzzle, I’ll have a mooch around some further notes regarding the cemetery and I’ll post anything that may appear to be relevant.

 

J

[barrieduncan]

Very interesting thread. I can't add anything to the original query, but can add a little on the 'regimental' cemeteries of The Cameronians / Scottish Rifles that might be of interest.

 

The image in the IWM link was taken by R. C. Money, a 1st Cameronians officer who was sent (along with Major R. Oakley) to the 2nd Scottish Rifles after Neuve Chapelle to help the Battalion reform. He took a number of photographs while with the 2nd Scottish Rifles. A number of graves appear to have been photographed on 19th March 1915, the graves of officers and men of the 2nd who died in January and February 1915, namely Capt W. I. Maunsell, Sjt A. Cameron, and Lts R. Graham and J H Kennedy (the last two killed the day before your relative). These four men are now buried in Aubers Ridge British Cemetery, but according to the concentration records on CWGC they were removed from 36.M 23.a 32.05 - Rue Du Bacquerot (Winchester Post) Military Cemetery in January 1925. From this photograph dated 19/3/15 we see that Maunsell and Cameron were buried side by side - as they were when they were moved from Winchester Post Cemetery to Aubers Ridge Cemetery in 1925 (CWGC concentration records). We can also see that Cameron's grave was marked 10470 PIPE MJr A. CAMERON, which on the concentration return was taken down as Pte MJ Cameron. I guess the existence of this cemetery begs the question why your relative and his three comrades killed on the 11th January weren't also interred here, given that Graham and Kennedy were killed (presumably in the same trenches) the day before. What's also a little odd is that in the concentration report where Kennedy and Graham are listed, there is another 2nd SR man listed, Private J Carlyle, who died on 20th December 1914. Carlyle was also moved from Winchester Post Cemetery. Incidentally, Cameron appears to have been the last Cameronian to be buried in Winchester Post (died 10th February 1915). 

 

 

Back to the image in the IWM link (which by the way has been flipped when developed/scanned, Chalmers medals are on the wrong side of his chest); this image appears in the same album of Money photographs in The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) regimental collections. In the album it is dated as 5th May 1915, and is captioned: "Our own cemetery - The orchard. S. M. Chalmers." According to the War Diary, the 2nd Scottish Rifles had moved to Petillion on 4th May. On 6th May they moved to billets on Rue de Bois. Now, there are a number of Cameronians buried in both Rue De Bois Military Cemetery and Rue-Petillon Military Cemetery. They were also not all that far away from Brewery Orchard Cemetery at Bois Grenier, so I believe the IWM photograph could show either of these (or something else entirely).

 

I'm not sure what (if anything) this adds, but I'm posting anyway in case it might of some interest.

 

Cheers

 

Barrie

 

 

[Grantp08]

Interesting stuff as well Barrie. Again, I really appreciate the input. 

 

When I started on the cemetery search, Rue Du Bacquerot (Winchester Post) was my first thought. It lies just a few hundred meters directly behind the Chapigny Farm area and I've seen an aid station marked there on a maps. I'd wondered if there was a connection with the fact that it was only the fallen officers (plus Pipe Major Cameron- not sure as to the etiquette there) who were buried there and perhaps the ORs moved elsewhere?

 

To cover all bases, I also included Aubers Ridge cemetery on my route! I ended up doing over 25km on Saturday and even that was cutting a few corners. Think I'll take a car next time....

 

As another sad wee aside, I'd based my initial research on the hand written unit diaries from Kew for the 1914-15 period and had got used to the script used.  I had noticed that the writing had changed early Feb and only then discovered that Capt & Adjutant Maunsell had been killed and another officer had taken on the duty

 

For completeness, I've added William's picture from the death notice in the Glasgow Evening Times.

 

Thanks again. 

 

Grant 

[David Fothergill]

Hi Grant

 

Never quite sure how postings work on forums but I have just replied to your message via my own timeline.

 

David

 

ps It was W I Maunsell who completed the 2nd Bttn SR War Diary for 28th January 1915 the day of my Great Uncles death.

[chtilulu2]

On 10/10/2019 at 03:27, jay dubaya said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Jay, Is this document available online?

 

I can't find it on the CWGC website.

 

Thanks to you for your reply.

 

Loïc (Chtilulu: I've lost my password)

 

[Michelle Young]

I’ve merged your old account with the new one as dual membership is not allowed.

Michelle 

[chtilulu2]

Thank you very much, I didn't know how to do it because my old email address no longer works. Loïc

 

[jay dubaya]

4 hours ago, chtilulu2 said:

 

 

Hello Jay, Is this document available online?

 

I can't find it on the CWGC website.

 

Thanks to you for your reply.

 

Loïc (Chtilulu: I've lost my password)

 

Sadly not available online, if you would like a copy please PM me an email address

 

J

[chtilulu2]

Thanks to you Jay for your help! :-)