T.S.P unit ( I'm scratching my head)

[RaySearching]

T.S.P  shown as the unit served with on a list of the fallen

what could this possibly be,  I am stumped (or getting to old to think properly) 

 

 

regards Ray

 

[Gardenerbill]

Have you tried looking for a medal index card Hirwell is not common a name might give a clue.

[MaxD]

The name Hirwell eludes me on CWGC, Soldiers Effects, Medal records and all  Ancestry/FMP military listings except the IWM where (presumably the same) B Hirwell is listed on the Middlesbrough War memorial .  

 

Teesside something??  

 

Max

[IPT]

I suspect that Hirwell is not a genuine name, but a mistake for Hipwell or something similar. 

 

That hasn't got me anywhere so far, however.

 

 

I've got a Robert Haswell. Could have been Bob?

 

Reaching a bit.

[RaySearching]

I have also searched with various variations of his name

Hurwell

Herwell

Harwell

Ect

spent the best part of four hours on  it last night

Zilch 

Thought if the unit could be identified 

then I may have had a clue to go on

 

Ray

 

 

[ss002d6252]

There is no B Hirwell on the 1911 census.

Nearest in Middlesbrough, as it was, that I can see is Benjamin Howell. The man was born 1879 and seems to have died in 1920 (but noted as age 33).

 

Craig

[RaySearching]

Thanks for the replies 

I am still getting nowhere 

I shall wait until all the pension records have been uploaded there may be a clue among them 

 

T.S.P has me intrigued  

 

Temporarily service ? perhaps

 

Ray 

[PhilB]

Tees Side Police? 

[pierssc]

The use of "Unit" in the thread title may be a distraction.  Given that we don't seem to be able to find him (or obvious variants of his name) on CWGC lists of the military fallen, nor on the sort of military records searchable on Ancestry, could he be a civilian who had died as a result of enemy action serving with a public service but non-military body?  Perhaps killed in a Zeppelin raid or something like that?  And possibly not even British?  Are there any other obviously non-military deaths in the list Ray?  What is the list from anyway?

 

Like PhilB, I wonder whether the "P" might stand for Police?  The "S" for Special?  Or State... or Service....

 

Could it possibly be (whisper it) an abbreviation for a German unit?

 

Perhaps someone with access to British Newspapers online could search for him there?  Maybe with a couple of wildcards in the name... which I guess probably began with "H" and ended in "ell" but may not have been "Hirwell".

 

Will keep looking.

[RaySearching]

Just had a stroke of inspiration

 

Tees side Pioneers  (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment

 

Now to find the man to confirm it

 

Ray

 

[IPT]

Is there a glossary in that document? Also, is there any other man with T.S.P.?

[RaySearching]

9 hours ago, IPT said:

Is there a glossary in that document?

 

IPT the simple answer is no, to both questions

The list of the fallen comes from Middlesbrough 's Effort In The Great War by William Robertson   

which lists (in most cases)  the unit the fallen served with 

The total number of names listed is 3,137 (some names have been duplicated the name put forward by various family members, wives, girlfriends,parents etcetera  for inclusion on the war memorial

 

I have managed so far to identify some 90% of the fallen and wrote a short biography on each of the fallen

The newly released pension documents is revealing that a number of men listed died after the armistice or died after discharge of various causes (some not attributable to their war service TB  and  victims of the flu pandemic being the most common

consequently some of the names listed are not commemorated on the CWGC register

 

regarding the T.S.P

In 1915 it was decided to raise a Teeside Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment known as the (Teesside Pioneers)

I am leaning towards this unit as the one abbreviated as T.S.P  unless anyone knows differently  

 

Here is the full page of the list of the fallen from the above mentioned book

 

 

Thanks for all the replies  to my post

Regards Ray

[seaJane]

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

[IPT]

9 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

 

Can't see any obvious clues in his service papers. He only lasted about seven weeks before being discharged as medically unfit.

 

Unless "Transferred" "Sick" or "Pension" are involved. Robert Haswell was discharged medically unfit before he died.

[davidbohl]

Ray, there are a lot of Hurrell's in Middlesborough.

P for Post ?

good luck

Dave

 

[MaxD]

9 hours ago, seaJane said:

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

 

In the Key case, it looks as if it is a mis reading for Trp (for Trooper).  The Silver War Badge roll entry is transcribed as Grp although the entry itself is pretty clear.  (There is another DLOY man also with rank Trp which looks like Tsp).

 

Doesn't help the Hirwell case though!

 

Max

[MaxD]

It is of note that the newspapers of the period including the London Gazette wrote the unit as Tees-side Pioneers, ie three words which a well meaning person may well have rendered as T.S.P.  Note the list is not entirely consistent or accurate in the way it renders unit titles and names eg 6th Lincolns Regiment, or Henderson Alexandra for Alexander.

 

On 09/10/2019 at 09:54, RaySearching said:

In 1915 it was decided to raise a Teeside Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment known as the (Teesside Pioneers)

I am leaning towards this unit as the one abbreviated as T.S.P  unless anyone knows differently  

 

I'd go along with RaySearching on this.

 

Max

[RaySearching]

Due to the lack of any collaborating service, death or any other records for the name B Hirwell

 

Having considered all the available information on B Hirwell which totals zero

 

I believe this entry is an erroneous inclusion on the memorial roll

This name B Hirwell having been put forward by a friend or family acquaintance, after the armistice for inclusion on the memorial who was possibly known as Bob Hirwell and knew that he had served with the Yorkshire Regiment

 

I believe this soldier may be the following

 

 

Private ROBERT HASWELL
3/8120 Depot Yorkshire Regiment (3rd Res Battalion)   (previously 6th Bn Yorkshire Regiment)

Robert enlisted on the 14th August 1914 giving his address as 35 Fletcher Street Middlesbrough and his occupation as a steelworks labourer he served in Egypt for 8 months before being sent to France where he was blown up and buried by an exploding shell, he suffering a perforated ear drum and shell shock he was initially treated in  a field hospital in Boulogne before being  transferred to the 4th London General Hospital  he spent 185 days in hospital  and was discharged from the hospital and the army on the 23rd March 1917 as no longer physically fit for war service (shell shock, general nervous instability headaches and vertigo)  SWB no 154121 
Robert died at home aged 29 of Phithisis on 23rd December 1918
He was the son of  the late John Robert and Ellen S Haswell and the husband of Jane Annie Haswell (nee Godsman) of I Bowley Street St Pauls Road Middlesbrough.

The couple married in Middlesbrough in 1912

Robert can be found on the 1911 census lodging with his older brother John and his wife at 51 Punch Street Middlesbrough employed by the North Eastern Railways as a loco fireman

The register of soldiers effects lists his widow Jane A as the legatee of his effects

Born and enlisted Middlesbrough

MIDDLESBROUGH (LINTHORPE) CEMETERY

 

 

Robert has a W.F.A pension card

which shows that a pension was refused (reason disease contracted after discharge) 

 

 

 To conclude B.Hirwell  = Robert Harwell

Unless somebody knows otherwise ,  nothing in cast in stone in research of this nature

 

Regards Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 October , 2019 by RaySearching
adding info

[PhilB]

Only missing a connection to 12th Bn?

[RaySearching]

10 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Only missing a connection to 12th Bn?

 

 

 agreed

As IPTs post 4 

 

A transcription error maybe

and also the unit given is unresolved

 

Ray

[PhilB]

Rather severe refusing a pension as the disease was assumed contracted after discharge. He died of phthisis, the old name for TB. The average time to die is given as three years without treatment and he had been out 21 months. I imagine TB would have been a common killer around the Middlesbrough of those days but I imagine it was also around in Egypt and France?

[tullybrone]

Strange pension refused yet he still has CWGC headstone (indicating death was accepted to be back as a result of service).

 

Steve

[RaySearching]

There may, or may not be other WFA pension records relating to this soldier, or his widow 

which may have not been uploaded yet  and may shed a different light on the subject of the pension refusal

 

amendment to post 18

(nothing in cast in stone in research of this nature) in post 18

should read nothing is cast in stone in research of this nature 

must learn to preview my posts before pressing the submit reply button

 

Regards Ray

[exXIX]

On 10/10/2019 at 21:52, RaySearching said:

There may, or may not be other WFA pension records relating to this soldier, or his widow 

which may have not been uploaded yet  and may shed a different light on the subject of the pension refusal

 

amendment to post 18

(nothing in cast in stone in research of this nature) in post 18

should read nothing is cast in stone in research of this nature 

must learn to preview my posts before pressing the submit reply button

 

Regards Ray

Ray, have you tried looking in the other Battalions of the 'Kitchener Armies'? my grandfather enlisted with the 12th Batt, presumably with his mates as he was a dock labourer in Middlesbrough. On arrival at the depot Richmond, he was posted to the 4th Batt. I read somewhere about the mayor of Middlesbrough writing to Lord Kitchener, complaining that the Regt was 'stealing' his men from Middlesbrough for use in other Batt. as casualty replacements. My grandad was then posted back to 12th Batt. , at Aldershot I believe. He was wounded near Ypres in 1917 but was again transferred to 6th, so this was a common thing but as the 12th \batt. was raised as the 'Middlesbrough Pals' under Kitcheners initial call for volunteers. The Mayor and Council appear to have been 'fairly annoyed' that men destined for the towns Batt. were not actually reaching it, so had made waves to get this stopped...Gary

[Matlock1418]

On 10/10/2019 at 20:40, PhilB said:

Rather severe refusing a pension as the disease was assumed contracted after discharge. He died of phthisis, the old name for TB. The average time to die is given as three years without treatment and he had been out 21 months. I imagine TB would have been a common killer around the Middlesbrough of those days but I imagine it was also around in Egypt and France?

 

On 10/10/2019 at 21:38, tullybrone said:

Strange pension refused yet he still has CWGC headstone (indicating death was accepted to be back as a result of service).

For R, HASWELL 3/8120

[TB was commonly accepted as caused by Overseas Service, presumed if only Home Service (in the absence of other evidence), for disability and widow's pensions]

Does anyone know when he was married?  Perhaps a marriage after discharge barred his widow from claiming. Edit - just noted above, apparently married in 1912

:-) M

Edit: - No evidence to suggest that this was the case [just a speculative/potential explanation - perhaps on top of the visible "Disease contracted after discharge" which certainly had been tried on by the MoP earlier in the war] - A widow's personal behaviour could potentially have dis-entitled her as being considered  "Unworthy" [for various reasons].  Challenging times.  These are just index cards so not the whole story - Such a shame most of the main pension files seem to have been destroyed..

Edited 16 August , 2021 by Matlock1418
Strikethrough/Edit