Mystery or Simple Explanation ?

[MERLINV12]

My great-uncle Pte C W Sherwood 18714 "C" Company - 1st Battalion Northants Regt was KIA 12/10/15, and appears on the Loos Memorial (panel 92B).  Presumably because his body was never found ?

 

This has been accepted as his fate, however only two days ago a press cutting (image below) has come to light, which may contradict the accepted story. I fully realise that this report contains some of the usual platitudes, (heroic death, fulfilling his duty etc) but would his friend "invent" the rest of the story ?

 

I know it is impossible to find the real reason, but would like some informed opinions/theories as to how he ended up on the memorial when his body existed.

 

Even with my lack of knowledge of The Great War, I have formed several reasons why his body "disappeared", if it did, but would like to hear some from those who have studied this period for years, maybe even have come across a similar scenario.

 

TIA.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by MERLINV12

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I what way is the printed version different to the 'accepted' version? (By which I presume, the version related by the family since his death).

[Heid the Ba]

Even if his body was brought back to the British lines and buried the grave could have been lost or destroyed in subsequent fighting.

[sadbrewer]

I've just had a look at the same article...there seem to be a number of other 1st Northants lads killed around the same time...have you checked to see if any of them have graves...or just Private Sherwood?

[Steven Broomfield]

The information from the other chap merely comments (probably rather more romantibally than in reality) on the death; chances are the poor devil was left where was killed (no sense getting yourself killed trying to recover a dead body) and never found.

[MaxD]

The war diary has no action of 12 Oct 1915.  However, there was ferocious fighting on 13 and 14 Oct which is recorded in great detail in the diary.  It includes an observation that wire was uncut.

The cutting doesn't say that his body was recovered and reading the war diary, he may well have been seen to have been killed but in the confusion of the fighting (there were four battalions all mixed together), it is hardly surprising that his body was subsequently lost.  The entry ends with the observation that many dead were lying in the trenches that the attack had failed to secure and that they were being shelled constantly.

 

Max

[Mark1959]

There is no hard and fast rule about why a body disappeared.

An example, a chap I have investigated was killed at Messine on 7/6/1917. He was buried with 7 others in a marked grave with a wooden cross with their names on. The family received a letter from a comrade stating the exact location of the burial (I have seen the letter). The Grave Registration Unit followed the instructions and found the cross in some state in disrepair. However, no remains were found.

So the fact that someone saw him die does not mean the whereabouts of his remains should be known. Further fighting may have oblitereated his battlefield burial, the location may have been misreported, etc, etc. 

Sadly, many suffered a similar fate.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by Mark1959

[MERLINV12]

11 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

The information from the other chap merely comments (probably rather more romantibally than in reality) on the death; chances are the poor devil was left where was killed (no sense getting yourself killed trying to recover a dead body) and never found.

 

 One of the reasons I came up with. thanks

 

26 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I what way is the printed version different to the 'accepted' version? (By which I presume, the version related by the family since his death).

By "accepted", I meant that body was never found, hence on the memorial.

 

17 minutes ago, Heid the Ba said:

Even if his body was brought back to the British lines and buried the grave could have been lost or destroyed in subsequent fighting.

Another of my theories, thanks

 

15 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

I've just had a look at the same article...there seem to be a number of other 1st Northants lads killed around the same time...have you checked to see if any of them have graves...or just Private Sherwood?

When you say the same article,  you have the advantage, all I was given was the image I posted, can you provide the rest of it please ??

 

11 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

The information from the other chap merely comments (probably rather more romantibally than in reality) on the death; chances are the poor devil was left where was killed (no sense getting yourself killed trying to recover a dead body) and never found.

 

Beginning to think I knew the answer, before I asked the question.

[MERLINV12]

11 minutes ago, MaxD said:

The war diary has no action of 12 Oct 1915.  However, there was ferocious fighting on 13 and 14 Oct which is recorded in great detail in the diary.  It includes an observation that wire was uncut.

The cutting doesn't say that his body was recovered and reading the war diary, he may well have been seen to have been killed but in the confusion of the fighting (there were four battalions all mixed together), it is hardly surprising that his body was subsequently lost.  The entry ends with the observation that many dead were lying in the trenches that the attack had failed to secure and that they were being shelled constantly.

 

Max

Max,

 

Thanks for your input, I naively thought that if he was just 3 feet away they would have dragged him into the trench.

10 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

There is no hard and fast rule about why a body disappeared.

An example, a chap I have investigated was killed at Messine on 7/6/1917. He was buried with 7 others in a marked grave with a wooden cross with their names on. The family received a letter from a comrade stating the exact location of the burial (I have seen the letter). The Grave Registration Unit followed the instructions and found the cross in some state in disrepair. However, no remains wer found.

So the fact that someone saw him die does not mean the whereabouts of his remains should be known. Further fighting may have oblitereated his battlefield burial, the location may have been misreported, etc, etc. 

Sadly, many suffered a similar fate.

 Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply, that was one of my scenarios, his body recovered and buried and then grave area shelled.

[helpjpl]

As previously stated, the War Diary records no casualties on 12th October and it is likely that Charles was killed in the action of the following day together with a number of his comrades.

This list shows that the majority who fell have no known grave and are commemorated on the Loos Memorial:

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=Northamptonshire%2bRegiment&war=1&unit=1st%2bBn.&dateFrom=12-10-1915&dateTo=13-10-1915&casualtypagenumber=1

 

The attack, which commenced at 13:00, did not go well for the 1st Northants and at one point 'A' and 'C' companies were mixed up with the Black Watch and 10th Gloucesters in the front trenches. As it got dark  companies were able to free themselves and reorganise to some extent. By 19:00 hours orders were received to report exactly the position of all units.

 

Given the chaos, confusion, and the extent of the German shelling it is quite possible that the battalion was unable to retrieve and bury their dead.

 

JP

Edited 7 October , 2019 by helpjpl
typo

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, MERLINV12 said:

 

 

 

Beginning to think I knew the answer, before I asked the question.

 

But it never hurts to have others come up with the same theory!

[MERLINV12]

4 hours ago, helpjpl said:

As previously stated, the War Diary records no casualties on 12th October and it is likely that Charles was killed in the action of the following day together with a number of his comrades.

This list shows that the majority who fell have no known grave and are commemorated on the Loos Memorial:

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=Northamptonshire%2bRegiment&war=1&unit=1st%2bBn.&dateFrom=12-10-1915&dateTo=13-10-1915&casualtypagenumber=1

 

The attack, which commenced at 13:00, did not go well for the 1st Northants and at one point 'A' and 'C' companies were mixed up with the Black Watch and 10th Gloucesters in the front trenches. As it got dark  companies were able to free themselves and reorganise to some extent. By 19:00 hours orders were received to report exactly the position of all units.

 

Given the chaos, confusion, and the extent of the German shelling it is quite possible that the battalion was unable to retrieve and bury their dead.

 

JP

 

Thanks for the infomative reply, good work  should have thought of checking CWGC myself, as they say it's all down to experience, and thats why I asked for help.

[MaxD]

For interest - have you read the war diary?

 

Max

Edited 7 October , 2019 by MaxD

[travers61]

Although it seems very likely that his body was never recovered from no mans land, another possibility is that if his body was recovered & buried, it could not be identified so he lies in a Soldier of the great war CWGC grave.

[MERLINV12]

9 minutes ago, MaxD said:

For interest - have you actually read the war diary?

 

Max

Max,

 

Let me explain, I am actually researching/searching for photo of his brother, my grandfather, and having enlisted the help of the village historical society, they turned up the press cutting, which got me thinking and going off on a tangent. They also found that their sister served in France with QMAAC, trying hard to resist going off in yet another direction.

 

I'm sure you know how easy that is, I did check the forum depository, but couldn't find the diary.

 

Michael.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by MERLINV12

[MaxD]

Should you need it for more background:

National Archives at:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052710

Ancestry at:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1271_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

 

Max

 

[brianmorris547]

And further reading in the WDs of 2 Infantry Brigade and HQ General Staff, 1 Div. 

Brian