The great Landing on the Flanders coast 1917

[armourersergeant]

I went to a talk regarding this subject. Not sure if it would be classed as a naval topic or an army topic but i'll post here anyway. It is by definition as its author said a combined arms ops.

If anyone gets to listen to this talk, not sure if he does the WFA rounds, then do so. It is the first time i became aware how close it came to being launched. opinions are devided that it would have worked.

But what amased me was the thought and planning that went in to it. Certainly no bunglers in the preperation and thought process. they worked out the problems and found workable solutions to them.

Whether it would have worked remains to be seen but it would not have been for planning and preperation.

When i say how close it came to being launched i guess you could say a few miles. If the break through had happened at Ypres in 1917 then they would have gone. but as we know that never happened.

Still an amazing topic and well explained with diagrams etc.

As i say if you get a chance then do so.

regards

Arm.

Ps It was apparently Haig who suggested the use of tanks in the assualt, after they had been used only weeks before on the Somme.

[redbarchetta]

I have to second Arm's opinion, it was an excellent talk. The operation was a true 'make things up as we go along' scheme, most of the stuff they planned was totally unique, never tried before, but problems were presented and people came up with workable solutions to overcome them. Great !

Even got a Blackadder IV reference in there, which made it for me !!!!

Did wonder how many Pals there were in the room, anonymous - I'm going to have to look into the cost of badges...

Arm, I was the guy in the suit, straight from work, asked a couple of questions etc. If you go to the next one, I'll bring any Loos postcards I have (but you'll have to make yourself known...!!!!)

Jim

[Jonathan Saunders]

What did Chris Page say about getting tanks and artillery ashore - I am presuming you are talking about an invasion force at somewhere like Antwerp - what plans did the British Command have to get the hardware ashore to back up the inital shock force that landed and how did they propose to back up the bridgehead? Who were the planners, what did they identify as "problems" and what were the answers they proposed.

[redbarchetta]

Jonathan,

This was an hour log talk... where do you want me to start ??!

The plan was to land in three spots between Ostend and Zeebrugge, so not too far from our line so the sweep across from Ypres would meet them, but close enough to Zee to make it untenable for the Germans and their U boats. Enough kit had to get ashore to create the bridgehead, before the Germans realised what was going on.

Now for the Heath Robinson bit...

Let's tie two Monitor ships together, then get an 800 foot pontoon full of men and equipment. The ships push this huge pontoon up the coast, then turn in to shore and push the far end onto the beach and everyone gets off....! Simple !

Problem 1: 30 foot sea wall with a 3 foot concrete overhang...

(This was the Blackadder reference - this was the hardest point to effect a seabore invasion, largely due to this sea wall, "and therefore EXACTLY the LAST thing they'll expect us to do...!!!!")

Solution 1: The tanks (oh, there were three tanks at the front of each column/pontoon) had a wedge shaped ramp, so they drive up the 30 degree sea wall, get to the lip, drop the wedge in front of them, so it creates a ramp up over the lip, albeit at about 45 degrees. Simple !

Problem 2: The point they hit the beach has to be dead on, several miles up the coast from friendly coastline...

Solution 2: Guide tugs reel out wire from a precise point on friendly territory... duh, c'mon - that was easy...!!

It was really interesting. Someone must have written a book on it, he had photo's that were clearly taken from a book...

Jim

[Jonathan Saunders]

Let's tie two Monitor ships together, then get an 800 foot pontoon full of men and equipment.

I have seen photos ... recently ... somewhere ... of a pontoon bridge wedged between two monitors ...

[armourersergeant]

Jon,

It was brill, not sure you would have liked the Haig not being a Donkey quote but nevertheless it was very infromative.

Red,

I feel like Big brother was watching me. You must have been behind me i was on the right hand side as you came in second row up from the front on the end near the isle. I also asked a few questions, usually do as i often dont know much.

Look under my name and you will see apicture of me in my details. I am a handsome ****** so you cant miss me. Next time i will PM you before the meeting to see if you are going and then we can talk. I have missed the last two but normally go regular.

Are you off to the 5th March saturday talk, went last year it was great.

Thought the talk was really good and imformative, often find that the ones i think I will njot like are the best.

see ya next time

Arm.

[armourersergeant]

PS

What the hell is that thing on your details.

I am sorry but no one of that description was at the meeting i went to

regards

Arm.

[redbarchetta]

The picture ? It's a tobacco jar, made from two 18lb shell cases with various Canadian cap badges around it... doesn't everyone have one...??

No doubt will go to the day school, must remember to send in my cheque...

Cheers Arm,

Jim

[domsim]

What did Chris Page say about getting tanks and artillery ashore - I am presuming you are talking about an invasion force at somewhere like Antwerp - what plans did the British Command have to get the hardware ashore to back up the inital shock force that landed and how did they propose to back up the bridgehead? Who were the planners, what did they identify as "problems" and what were the answers they proposed.

The plan was to land a division split into 3 brigades (squeezed onto 3 of the massive pontoons) on the beaches between Nieuport and Middlekerke near Ostend. 3 tanks were assigned to each brigade, 2 standard mark IV males to clear gun postions and machine guns and one specially adapted mark IV female with a winch on the starboard side to winch artillery and supplies up a special ramp deployed from the first tank. There are some excellent blue prints of the pontoons, ramps and tanks in the Tank Museum library at Bovington.

Robert Dunlop has done a good summary of the operation here:

Operation Hush

Cheers

Dominic

[Jonathan Saunders]

Dom - many thanks for your comments. Also noted I referred to Antwerp when I had a mental block