Laurence M Greene. 2nd Batt. Irish Guards - 7032. Military Medal Winner

[GJW]

Hi,

 

More help please. Having a run on medal winners in my village research project. Could I be so bold as to ask for some help with this man. Anything and everything would be appreciated

 

 

Kindest,

 

Gerard

[Mark1959]

Which village? May help tracking down the correct man. Any more details?

 

[IPT]

Castledermot

[George Rayner]

Apparently Gazetted 10/8/16 on M M card on FMP

 

George

[GJW]

Apologies. Castledermot, Co. Kildare. From a very small village we have so far 38 dead and about 84 who served and survived. I am trying to put it all together as it was taboo for many many years. 

[corisande]

He seems to have been born just Laurence Greene.

 

I could not find what his "M" was for.

 

He is in 1901 census with family, but I did not find him in 1911 census

 

 

[George Rayner]

This could be the family minus Laurence in 1911 and forgiving incorrect adding 10!

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=70564&h=17074208&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=70667

 

George

 

[corisande]

I think he is probably in 1911 census as a Drapers Assistant in Dublin (FmP entry)

 

Which gives him as Lawrence (sic) Greene born Kildare and aged 16

[George Rayner]

That's how I looked for him-with a w not a u! Birth cert looked that way

 

George

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, GJW said:

Apologies. Castledermot, Co. Kildare. From a very small village we have so far 38 dead and about 84 who served and survived. I am trying to put it all together as it was taboo for many many years. 

 

Apologises for a little off topic aside...

 

Gerard, was there a military barracks in Castledermot? If so where was it? 

 

I am pretty sure there was a reference to one in Neil Richardson’s book “according to their lights” which surprised me. Online searches didn’t help me locate it. I know there was/an RIC “barracks” I wondering if this was the same or there was a separate military barracks.

[corisande]

To makes matters a bit more confusing, there appears there may be another "Lawrence Greene" in Castledermot, or maybe not

 

This is a 1938 marriage, but gives the father as Francis Greene, harness maker. Whereas the Birth Cert has father as Henry Greene, harness maker. I suspect that it is the sme father in both

 

[GJW]

35 minutes ago, Jervis said:

 

Apologises for a little off topic aside...

 

Gerard, was there a military barracks in Castledermot? If so where was it? 

 

I am pretty sure there was a reference to one in Neil Richardson’s book “according to their lights” which surprised me. Online searches didn’t help me locate it. I know there was/an RIC “barracks” I wondering if this was the same or there was a separate military barracks.

There was an RIC barracks and courthouse in Castledermot. It is on Barrack street (or road) beside O'Gorman Butchers. It still exists. The nearest or most popular recruitment office was in Carlow town or so it would seem from our research

[GJW]

Thank you all.

[corisande]

There is a family tree on Ancestry - click for tree - which gives that as his marriage and his death as 1941

[clk]

Hi Gerard,

 

There is a record for him being passed through 34 Casualty Clearing Station (in Grovetown)

 

 

 

All images sourced from Findmypast

 

The three sets of ditto marks in the last image give dates of 20.11.1916 (x 2), and '1 A.T' (presumably number 1 Ambulance Train).

 

It looks like he probably joined up on or around 10th March 1915. Service papers survive which show:

 

7010 Shields - attested 6.3.1915

7012 Sexton - attested 6.3.1915

7022 Mellon - attested 8.3.1915

7023 Whelan - attested 8.3.1915

7027 Talbot - attested 10.3.1915

7032

7034 McManus - attested 10.3.1915

7035 McKillop - attested 10.3.1915

7041 Gallagher - attested 11.3.1915

7048 Driscoll - attested 15.3.1915

7049 Christie - attested 8.3.1915

 

A March 1915 attestation date would tie back to the 1 year, 8 months completed service shown in the medical register.

 

Regards

Chris

[GJW]

Thanks Chris, Where can I find the records above. They would be ideal for my purpose. I have had no such luck. Appreciated.

 

Gerard

7023 Whelan - attested 8.3.1915 - does it show where this man was from - am missing a James Whelan - 

[IPT]

1 hour ago, GJW said:

7023 Whelan - attested 8.3.1915 - does it show where this man was from - am missing a James Whelan - 

 

This is Edward Whelan from Newtownbarry, Wexford.

[GJW]

Thanks Chris. Could you please let me know where I can find the above papers on Greene on lineif possible.

[clk]

Hi Gerard,

 

2 hours ago, GJW said:

Where can I find the records above.

 

I got them from Findmypast. What I did is in their search page (link), I just used the 'Regiment' and 'Soldier Number' fields. Regiment = Irish Guards; Soldier Number = (partial wild card) 703* gives 16 hits, including...

 

I then only had to look at the records labelled 'British Army Service Records'. Then I repeated the exercise, changing the partial wild card number to 702*, 704* etc.

 

4 minutes ago, GJW said:

Thanks Chris IPT. Could you please let me know where I can find the above papers on Greene on lineif possible

I think that only selective Guards ones are online, and I didn't see one for Greene. I believe that Guards records were held elsewhere, and weren't effected by the main fire in WW2, though according to the National Archives, some were lost as the result as the result of bombing to the Guards chapel. More recently I think that the Irish Guards service files were moved, and are now in the custody of the MoD. You should be able to get a probably heavily weeded copy (see here), but that would cost £30. If you did decide to go down that route, there is a helpdesk number here.

 

Regards

Chris

[GJW]

Very Clever and thank you for sharing this with me!

[Ivor Anderson]

His MM was an early one, listed in the LG on 10 August 1916 while he was still a private with the 2nd Bn. 

Born 26 Sept. 1893 at St. Johns according to BC on irishgenealogy.ie., so he was 22 when he got the MM.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29701/supplement/7887 (no MM schedule no.). 

2nd Bn. WD: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351845 (entered France 17 Aug. 1915).

There was a significant trench raid on the night of 2/3rd July 1916. Lt. Francis L. M. Pym went missing during this raid after silencing a MG.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1625201/FRANCIS LESLIE MELVILLE PYM/

He was mentioned in despatches but would have got at least a MC had he survived - WD trench raid summary ending from TNA (WO95/1220/1):

N.B. a Sgt. Joseph H. O'Hagan of 2nd Bn. is listed for a MM in the LG of 27.10.1916, schedule no. 35663.

               Sgt. George McCarthy 5096 of 2nd Bn. is listed MM in the LG of 27.10.16, schedule no. 35672.

               Pte. John Sweeney 8120 (3rd, late 2nd Bn.) is listed in the LG of 27.10.16, schedule no. 35674.

               Pte. Denis Ryan 4817 of 2nd Bn. is also listed in the LG of 27.10.16, schedule no. 35678.

Edited 21 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Ivor Anderson]

MM listed in LG on 10 August 1916 while he was still a private with the 2nd Bn.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29701/supplement/7887 (no MM schedule nos.).

There are 6 MMs to 2nd Bn. Irish Guards in this LG:  Pte. Patrick Callaghan 9309, Sgt. Michael A. Cole 6169, Pte. Laurence M. Greene 7032, Pte. J. Hawthorne 7739, Pte. Harry Naylor 8720, Pte. Thomas Shannon 6653. At least some of these may be for the 2/3rd July trench raid.

Sgt. C. E. Anstey (Kipling wrongly calls him Austen) 7218 got the DCM for the trench raid on 2/3 July 1916 (Citation below from LG 25 July 1916). He is mentioned in the WD account of the raid: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29684/supplement/7446

Edited 21 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The MM Index card for Laurence Greene 7032 (TNA WO 372/23/113309) - it has no schedule no., but an authorisation list ref. 0137/2641.

The other 2nd Bn. MM cards have different ref. nos. so they may be for different actions during April-June 1916. e.g. Shannon's is 0137/2713.

Edited 21 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[GJW]

Thank you Ivor, that research is most welcome and helpful. It is appreciated.

Gerard