Ottoman Infantry Regiment 72 on August 6/7 1915

[Robert Dunlop]

I would be grateful for any supplementary information on the dispositions of 72nd Infantry Regiment on the evening of the assault on Sari Bair. The attached map is from Ottoman sources. The key terrain features on Sari Bair ridge are labelled in red as well. Erickson mentions that I/IR72 sent a message about the unfolding attack at 1.30 am from the 'far right flank of the [Ottoman] 19th Division'. This is marked (presumptive) with the red ellipse. Is there any information about the other 2 battalions please?

 

I/IR14 lay to the north, scattered across the defensive positions known in English as Bauchop's Hill, Table Top, etc. Its sister battalions were back behind the ridge leading to Hill 971 (off map).

 

Are there any details about the disposition of the battalions in the 18th and 27th Infantry Regiments further south please.

 

Thank you.

 

Robert

Edited 7 September , 2019 by Robert Dunlop

[michaeldr]

 

Robert,

 

your question may be too detailed for the limited information which I have access to regarding this period, on this front. However, if you have not already seen it, then perhaps this map may be of help. It appears in Haluk Oral's 'Gallipoli 1915' and is credited by Haluk to Kadri Perk's 'Çanakkale Savaşlan Tarihi' (History of the Canakkale Battles)

 

 

Looking around the web, there are also some details to be gleaned here https://www.mq.edu.au/about/about-the-university/faculties-and-departments/faculty-of-arts/departments-and-centres/department-of-modern-history,-politics-and-international-relations/our-research/gallipoli-centenary-research-project/documents/turkish-works/Murat-Karatas.The-Gallipoli-Campaign-with-Maps.pdf

 

regards

Michael

[Robert Dunlop]

Thanks very much, Michael.

 

Although the map is not detailed enough, it has a lot of extra information that is extremely useful. The PDF doesn't seem to have maps within it but, as with the map, lots of extra details.

 

Robert

[Robert Dunlop]

The British Official History mentions that 2 companies of 2nd Battalion 72nd Infantry Regiment were in [19th] divisional reserve. They were ordered forward by Mustafa Kemal and reached the Sari Bair ridge at 7am.

 

Robert

[michaeldr]

Perhaps the same two companies encountered by Hans Kannengiesser; see p.207 of his 'The Campaign in Gallipoli'

 

[emrezmen]

Hello Robert.

 

On 07/09/2019 at 17:30, Robert Dunlop said:

I would be grateful for any supplementary information on the dispositions of 72nd Infantry Regiment on the evening of the assault on Sari Bair. The attached map is from Ottoman sources. The key terrain features on Sari Bair ridge are labelled in red as well. Erickson mentions that I/IR72 sent a message about the unfolding attack at 1.30 am from the 'far right flank of the [Ottoman] 19th Division'. This is marked (presumptive) with the red ellipse. Is there any information about the other 2 battalions please?

 

-1/72 deployed in the area between Malone's Gully and Sazli Dere.

*Two companies of the battalion were first sent to Rhododendron Spur at 6 am on 7 August and later headed to Chunuk Bair, and then pulled back to reserve area in Çatal Dere (behind Mortar Ridge and Battleship Hill) upon arrival of 9th Division units at Chunuk Bair. These two companies would later be deployed at Chunuk Bair again and took part in the attack on 10 Aug.
*Two coys of the battalion remained in their original positions.

-2/72 had just relieved 1/57 at German Officer's Ridge when attack of Australians on Lone Pine commenced. The battalion defended the trenches between Courtney's (excl) and Wire Gully against 6th Australian Battalion. 

-3/72 was also in the area between Malone's Gully and Sazli Dere together with two remaining companies of 1/72.

 

On 07/09/2019 at 17:30, Robert Dunlop said:

Are there any details about the disposition of the battalions in the 18th and 27th Infantry Regiments further south please.

 

18th Regiment was a permenent garrison at the Nek for quite some time like, for example, 125th Regt at Johnston's Jolly.

 

-1/18 was in reserve (two coys behind 2/18, other two behind 3/18).

-2/18 in frontline between today's Turkish monument and trench No.20. (two coys in frontline, two in reserve). 

-3/18 in frontline between south of Kabak Sirti (immediately west of today's Baby 700 Cem) and today's Turkish monument (two coys in frontline, two in reserve). 
 

-1/27 in frontline, holding the trenches No.23-31 in front of Quinn's Post (left side of the Turkish Quinn's was held by 2/57).
-2/27 in reserve.
-3/27 in frontline on Chessboard, in front of Pope's Hill.

 

This is how dispositions of frontline units should look like on 6-7 August (approximately):

 

A report from war diary of 19th Div about relieve of 1/57 by 2/72, and attack of 6th Australian Bn:

 

Mustafa Kemal's report regarding to situation of 19th Div as of night of 7 August:

 

I don't attach all reports/documents available for it will take too much time and space.

 

Sources:

-War Diary of 19th Division, vol.6 [Published by Turkish General Staff]

-War Diary of 27th Regiment, vol.2 [Published by Gallipoli Historic Site Directorate]

-Mustafa Kemal [ed. Ulug Igdemir]. Ariburnu Muharebeleri Raporu, Türk Tarih Kurumu, 1990 / Report of Ariburnu Battles, Turkish History Association, 1990, [Originally written in 1916] p.179

-Turkish OH.

 

Regards,

Emre

 

Edited 9 September , 2019 by emrezmen

[Robert Dunlop]

Wonderful. Thank you very much, Emre.

 

The extra details are extremely helpful.

 

Robert

[Robert Dunlop]

Emre, may I ask for you help again please? Further south, there was the attack on Kanlısırt (Lone Pine). 45th Infantry Regiment seemed to bear the brunt of the initial assault. From what I can make out, 1/47 was at the northern end of the regiment's sector and 2/47 was at the southern end. 3/47 was back in reserve. Further north, did the 125th Infantry Regiment have two battalions up and one in reserve as well? To the south, it looks like all three battalions of 48th Infantry Regiment were in the line. Is this correct? Thank you.

Robert

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Robert Dunlop
Correction from 47th to 48th Regiment in last sentence

[Guest]

Bob,

 

Yes I also show the 45th Regt (15th Div) on the Helles Front and not on the Anzac Front?

 

I wrote something on this when writing on the 2nd Light Horse Brigade's front

 

The battle for what became known to the Turks as Kanh Sirt or Bloody Ridge, went on as fighting drew in more and more troops. The Turks lost two Regt commanders (47th and 15th Regts) that first day as units of the 16th and 5th Divisions were drawn in.

On the 8 Aug the Turkish commander sent in the 4Bn 10th Regt (4th Div) and the 12th Regt (8th Div) into the battle they attacked at 0500 and hard fighting went on all day. These attacks would last to the 10 Aug when the Turks officaly called the battle off, thou minor attacks continued. They give there total losses as 1520 killed 4750 wounded 760 missing 134 prisoners.

What about the 2nd LH Bde, its clear Turkish attention was further north and much of the Turkish strength was sent there, including a Bn of the 77th Regt and all the 47th Regt, that left parts of the 77th Regt and the 48th Regt for the time being.

 

But Emre should give more I hope.

 

S.B

[emrezmen]

 

13 hours ago, Robert Dunlop said:

Emre, may I ask for you help again please? Further south, there was the attack on Kanlısırt (Lone Pine). 45th Infantry Regiment seemed to bear the brunt of the initial assault. From what I can make out, 1/47 was at the northern end of the regiment's sector and 2/47 was at the southern end. 3/47 was back in reserve. Further north, did the 125th Infantry Regiment have two battalions up and one in reserve as well? To the south, it looks like all three battalions of 47th Infantry Regiment were in the line. Is this correct? Thank you.

Robert

 

That's correct. 3/47 was in reserve. 1/47 on northern part of the front (trenches numbered 76-77), and 2/47 on southern part (trenches numbered 78-79 - these two are the famous covered trenches. Especially the 78). 47th Regiment was also a permanent garrison - like other two regts of 16th Division. (I don't want to talk without providing any source. Here are some extracts from Turkish OH which confirm the info we have):

 

Ottoman trench numbers at Lone Pine are extraordinarily easy to identify, so I made an overlay and tried to locating the trenches (pre-6 August, of course) on today's terrain:

 

 

Usually the Ottoman regiments at Anzac had two battalions in frontline and one in reserve, and each battalion had two coys in frontline and two in rear. But information about which unit was where is too limited due to difficulties in reaching the war diaries or unit histories (this doesn't mean that they are closed to public), and scarcity of publications. Still I took a glance at KIA rolls provided by Ministry of National Defence, and found out that most of the casualties occured during August Offensive on 125th Regt front were from 1/125 and 2/125. Just two quick examples:

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

[Robert Dunlop]

Thank you very much once again, Emre. I appreciate the effort to retrieve and post the primary sources, plus editing the Google map. It has come out very well. Very smart thinking on using the casualty lists to infer what happened to 125th Infantry Regiment, thank you. This information covers what I needed.

 

I edited my previous post, having referred to 47th Infantry Regiment a second time when I meant 48th Infantry Regiment to the south. Erickson's book 'Gallipoli: The Ottoman Campaign' includes a detailed map of Battle of Kanlısırt. From the map, based on Ottoman sources, all three battalions of 48th Infantry Regiment appear to have been forward: 1 battalion occupying trenches 79 and 92; 1 battalion in trenches 93, 94 and 95; and 1 battalion in trench 96. Thank you for your point about two companies in the frontline and two in the rear, typically.

 

My project involves reproducing the battles of 6-9 August with 1:300 scale figures and a ground scale of 1" = 80 yards. Each infantry company fits on a stand that measures the equivalent of 100 yards x 100 yards. On a test run laying out the trenches and companies, the latter were jammed together if all companies were in the frontline. I knew this couldn't be the case. It has been very helpful to unwrap the details, as these make more sense of the layout.

 

Here is a photo of the side elevation of Sari Bair range, where each contour layer represents 20m. The other photo shows the terrain from the northern aspect. The brigade HQ company is located next to Ağıl dere and gives some idea of the ground scale.

 

Robert

 

 

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Robert Dunlop

[Robert Dunlop]

Here is an example from the Cape Helles landings. It shows the abortive attempts to disembark from SS River Clyde. Fort Sedd el Bahr is scratch-built, using plastic card.

 

Robert

 

 

[emrezmen]

Amazing! Good luck with the project. If there's anything further I can do, please send me a PM at any time.

 

Maps in Erickson's book were taken from Turkish OH. They're detailed but not to the extent that we need. Erickson had a chance to work on Turkish unit histories held in Turkish General Staff Archive. I'm a big fan of his work although I always observed some critical errors in his books.

 

On 11/09/2019 at 09:09, Robert Dunlop said:

all three battalions of 48th Infantry Regiment appear to have been forward

 

This is quite possible (48th Regiment was deployed on a very wide front -around 1.5 km- compared to other regiments), but hard to confirm. Still I'm sure both 1/48 and 2/48 were on frontline. I couldn't find any losses from 3/48 on 6-7 Aug in KIA rolls. The vast majority of losses seemed to be from 1st and 2nd Bns. 2/48 was probably in just south of Lone Pine, and at least its two coys (2nd and 4th) participated in the counter attacks at Lone Pine. 1/48 was, apparently, holding the southernmost portion of the regiment's front, and the attack on Holly Ridge early on 6 Aug 1915 was carried out by this battalion.

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 September , 2019 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Wrote this on the 2nd Light Horse Bde's front, which was to the right of the Lone Pine battle.

 

The 2nd LH Bde held that front along Bolton's to the Balkan Pits.

 

The Turks

One thing not mentioned were the Turkish forces who faced us. There was one Turkish Infantry Regt that was across the wire for the entire stay on Anzac, this was the 77th (Arab) Infantry Regt.

The 77th Regt under LtCol Saip Bey was a three Bn Regt formed in Syria/Palestine pre war and along with the 72nd Regt were sent to Thrace in 1914 to form the 26th Division, but due to other reasons these two Regts found these selves in the new 19th Division under LtCol Mustafa Kemal Bey where they were sent to the Bigali area of Canakkale in case of invasion.

On the 25 April, the 77th with the 72nd were rushed around the long way to attack the landing and so didn't get into action till late in the day, and suffered many losses over the next week, in attacks from around the Lone Pine Hill to Gaba Tepe Area.

On the 19 May in the Great attack, the 1st Bn 77th Regt under Maj Mehmet Emin Bey and 3rd Bn under Capt Fehmi (Yinaz) Bey with 800 men attacked and lost 144 wounded, after that the Regt set down to garrison work. The 16th Div next to the 77th Regt reported 1500 casualties while all units totalled around 9500 for the entire attack at Anzac.

Supporting the 77th Regt, was the 16th Division under Col Rüstü Bey (Sakarya) which extended the front of the 77th Regt around the Gaba Tepe Area, to wards Lone Pine with the 48th Regt under Maj Huseyin Ilhami (Ilham Bey), then the 47th Regt under Maj Tevfik Bey KIA 7-8-15, and 125th Regt under LtCol Abdurrezzak Bey.

Allied details on the Turkish Garrison was limited, I did see some reports in one of the 2nd LH Bde war dairies but when I looked for it I could not find it if you known pass it on,

If you check the map on page 19 for June 1915 2nd LH bde HQ war diary shows a the 2nd LH Bde positions along the Holly Spur towards the 400 Plateau (lone Pine).

Of the Turkish Trenches shown, the following Turkish Regts roughly held these areas, the 77th Regt held the Balkan Pits, the 48th Regt the Echerlon Trench to Boomarang Trench, the 47th Regt around Pine Bastion, Pine Ridge and Snipers ridge, and the 125th Regt around the 400 Plateau.

 

After the Lone Pine attacks the garrision along this area was as I said

 

Today marks the official end to the Lone Pine battle from the Turks point of view. during the last few days many units had been drawn into the battle and over the next few days these units would be sorted out and moved due to the fighting now between Anzac and Suvla.

The 16th Turkish Division was now placed into the line around Lone Pine to Johnston's Jolly while the defences from Lone Pine down to Gaba Tepe came under command of LtCol Abdürrezzak Bey and the 11th Division HQ, but with Regts came from the 5th Div.

The Balkan Pits area was still with the 77th Regt under LtCol Saip, with the 15th Regt under Maj Vetsel or Veysel Bey (Özgür), holding the TDT and Pine Ridge, the 13th Regt under Maj Fehmi Bey, took over the northern end of Pine ridge and Snipers Ridge.

These formations would be our major enemies during the later part of the Gallipoli battles.This should give you where Ottoman Regts held what parts of the Front here.

 

S.B

[Robert Dunlop]

12 hours ago, emrezmen said:

Amazing! Good luck with the project. If there's anything further I can do, please send me a PM at any time.

Thank you so much for the offer, Emre.

 

The project has been absolutely fascinating. I will take you up on your very kind offer, though sparingly.

 

I completely agree with your comments about Erickson. His work has been hugely helpful in raising a deeper understanding and appreciation for the Ottoman army in the Great War.

 

Thank you for checking on the losses per battalion re 48th Regiment. Your inferences all make good sense. 3/48 would have been furthest south if it had been in the line, so the possibility is not excluded. This is more than enough information now from my perspective. Much appreciated!

 

10 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Wrote this on the 2nd Light Horse Bde's front, which was to the right of the Lone Pine battle...

Thanks Steve,

 

Much appreciated. I had not checked yet on the Australian OOB to the south of the attack.

 

Robert

Edited 13 September , 2019 by Robert Dunlop

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Basicly the 2nd LH Bde held the Eastern Flank of Anzac for most of the stay there.

 

The 2nd LH Bde arrived on this flank around 20 May and were placed with the Bn's of the 1st Infantry Bde around Lone Pine

 

ON the 19 June the Bde was moved to the Flank and took over the southern part of Bolton's and Chatham Post.

 

Basicly the 5 LHR held Chathams for most of its stay at Anzac, while the 6th and 7th LHR's held Boltons and the different trenches dug there, like Wilsons Lookout.

 

During the 2nd LH Bde's stay there, it was given the 4 LHR, so its one of the few Mounted unit to have four LHR's.

 

Of cause the 3rd Infantry Bde held the northern part of Bolton's to Lone Pine for most of the time, untill the 2nd Div arrived

 

That's very basic on the Australian forces on that front, the day by day account of the 2nd LH Bde is shown on the Australian Light Horse Association

webb site, under the forum area, check out the discussion show as "20th May 1915 2nd Brigade lands at Gallipoli.

 

Its a day by day account of the 2 LH Bde at Gallipoli and showing its losses to all causes day by day. like;

 

20th June 1915 

Today

As stated by Len the 2nd LH Bde had taken over the Southern Trenches, according to the 7 LHR unit history, with 5th LHR from the beach Post to where the sap runs out to Chatham Post, 6 LHR from new sap to within 50 yeards of the Gun road (unit history shows at reserve at Rest Gully) and 7th LHR at Tasmania Post, with the MG Sect.

Wounded

 

MORRISON    Archibald Maclaine    163    Pte    05 LHR    C Sqn WIA 20-6-15 back/spine shot shown shrapnel reported by stray bullet at Gully post near Chatham Post evac to (1 AGH) hosp 6-15 (G) RTA wounded disch 26-7-16 AKA Archibald Maclain Morrison

 

HILL    Frank    738    Pte    6 LHR    2R tos C Sqn 4-15 shown WIA 15-6-15 R/arm bomb or bullet shrapnel arrived hosp 20-6-15 reported WIA 21-6-15 with 1 wounded in Deadmans or Rest Gully evac to (1 AGH) hosp 6-15 rtn 8-15 (G) to 17Co/4Bn 2-17 to 11Co/3Bn ICC 4-17 rtn 17Co 12-17 to LH Dtls 7-18 rtn 6 LHR 10-18 to UK leave AKA real name Frederick Robert Rix 

 

ANDREWS    James Campbell    29    Sgt / Bugler    7 LHR    RHQ WIA 20-6-15 R/arm shot at Tasmania Post evac to Ras el Tin Hosp 7-15 (G) evac to AAuxH Harefield UK 9-15 RTA wounded disch 16-4-16 relist Guard "HMTS "Kursk" Special Svcs (85759) to AIF HQ London UK 7-19 (British The Lanarkshire Yeomanry TF 5 years)

 

STYLES    Reginald Lucian    247    Pte    7 LHR    A Sqn WIA 20-6-15 R/arm shrapnel at Tasmania Post evac to (1 AGH) hosp 6-15 rtn 8-15 evac to (19 BGH) hosp (enteric) 10-15 (G) died enteric at 19 BGH Alexandria buried Chatby War Memorial Cemetery Egypt (Yass CCo/43 IR Werriwa CMF 9 years)

 

S.B

Edited 13 September , 2019 by stevebecker

[Crunchy]

Robert,

 

Sorry, I have come late to this thread.

The following is from our forthcoming book The Artillery at Anzac: Adaptation, Innovation and Education. It was provided to us by Professor Mesut Uyar who reads the Ottoman script and has studied the Ottoman Gallipoli campaign in some depth having been posted there as an officer in the Turkish Army for several years. He is the author of several works Turkish and in English is the author of The Ottoman Defence Against the Anzac Landing, 25 April 1915

 

Prior to the offensive:

 

Anchored on Russell’s Top and Baby 700, which were held by the 18th Infantry Regiment, the main Ottoman defensive line paralleled the ANZAC front along Second Ridge, the 400 Plateau, and Bolton’s Ridge to the coast north of Gaba Tepe. Further back along Sari Bair, and guarding the right flank, the 1st and 3rd battalions of the 72nd Infantry Regiment (1st/72nd Infantry and 3rd/72nd Infantry) occupied Battleship Hill and the ridges running north-west off the feature, while the 14th Infantry Regiment, less its 2nd Battalion (2nd/14th Infantry), lay south-west of Battleship Hill in reserve. Further along the spine of Sari Bair, the three main heights — Chunuk Bair, Hill Q and Hill 971 — had only rudimentary trenches and were undefended, save for the 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry Regiment (1st/32nd Infantry), encamped near Hill 971. Across the tangled terrain north of Sari Bair extending to the Anafarta Valley, and through which the ANZAC assault columns would pass to outflank the Ottoman defensive line, was a thin screen provided by the 2nd/14th Infantry.

 

and during the night of 7 August

 

Contrary to the accepted belief that the heights were open for the taking, elements of the 2nd/14th Infantry had retreated to Chunuk Bair, and Mustafa Kemal, commanding the Ottoman 19th Infantry Division and the Ottoman Anzac Sector, had ordered the 1st Battalion, 14th Infantry Regiment (1st/14th Infantry) to Hill 971, and another two companies of the same regiment to Hill Q. Separately, the 1st/72nd Infantry, had sent two companies to Chunuk Bair, while sometime between 6.00 and 7.00 am the advanced elements of the 64th Infantry Regiment also reached Chunuk Bair and Hill Q, and began occupying the heights. When the 25th Infantry Regiment arrived afterwards to reinforce the Ottoman positions, it too was directed towards Chunuk Bair.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

[Robert Dunlop]

Super. Thanks very much, Chris. I look forward to the new book!

Robert