Private Herbert Sidney Bradshaw

[Ali Blake]

Afternoon.  Hope some of you can help me.  I have been researching Herbert which has been made diffcult since I can't find his personal papers - presuming they didn't survive the fire in WW2. I have his MIC (his name is listed as Sydney Bradshaw) which shows that he originally joined the 15th Bn Sherwood Foresters (39328) and also served in 1918 with the 11th Bn Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (S/50353).  In between, he was in 195th Labour Company (taken from the Absent Voters List 1918) although his service number is listed as 11045E which doesn't fit in with the allocation of numbers to that LC.  I also have the war diaries for both regiments.

 

Am I right in presuming that at some time in 1916-17, he got injured or fell sick and, when recovered, he was sent to the LC as he wasn't fit enough for the front line?  I've tried to find his name listed in the Daily Casualty Lists on The Times Archive online but have got nowhere - I've found it very difficult to use.

 

Any help would be very much appreciated.

[EDWARD1]

His MIC and Medal Award Rolls make no mention of service with the Labour Corps 

 

[Ali Blake]

No they don't.  I found that information from the Grimsby Absent Voters List 1918. The family story is that he was subjected to gas poisoning at some point but no-one knows any details.  I'm new to researching hence my request for any help or steer in right direction.

[RussT]

According to the LLT, the 11th Bn QOCH was formed in July 1918 from the re-naming of the 6th Garrison Guard Bn, who had in turn joined 120th Brigade, 40th Division in June 1918.

 

Perhaps men who were fit enough were combed out of Labour formations to join the 11/QOCH.

 

Snippet (courtesy of FMP) below of a record for Frederick Newnham who was with a Labour unit but was then transferred to the 11/QOCH on 04/07/1918 and was given a similar number to your man of S/50323.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[Ali Blake]

First of all. Apologies to Edward1. First line should have read ' know' not 'no'.  Russ thanks for the info.  From what I can gather, some injured/ wounded men went to the bantam battalions of Royal Fusiliers then into LC before being transferred to front line regiments. A chap with a service number close to Herbert's went that route into 11/QOCH.  Problem I'm having is finding out if the reason Herbert was sent to LC was that he had become sick or got wounded, and if so, when approximately this happened.

[kenf48]

7 hours ago, Ali Blake said:

 

Am I right in presuming that at some time in 1916-17, he got injured or fell sick and, when recovered, he was sent to the LC as he wasn't fit enough for the front line?  I've tried to find his name listed in the Daily Casualty Lists on The Times Archive online but have got nowhere - I've found it very difficult to use.

 

 

 

The casualty list would only show if he was wounded, not sick.  The Sherwood number indicates he was probably one of the original Bantams recruited in February 1915.

 

While the Bantams caught the popular imagination they were not really a success, the lack of height was often an indication of poor physical development as a consequence of poverty and poor nutrition.

 

It appears 195 Labour Company was formed on the 14th May 1917, and a number of men were posted into the Company from the 15th Sherwood Foresters.  For example, 116487 Cree  suffered from ICT left foot, connective tissue disease, probably a form of trench foot, others who transferred at the same time showed no hospital admission prior to transfer. Pte. Cree, as you have probably seen, was attached to the 36th Labour Bn Royal Fusiliers when discharged from hospital,his transfer was cancelled. 

 

On June 9th 1918 the 40th Division, which had been threatened with dissolution following losses incurred during the Battle of the Lys and earlier, received orders that sixteen designated Garrison Guard Battalions formed from B1 men from Companies of the Labour Corps would be posted to the Division. Five Battalions were immediately allotted to 120th Brigade.  

 

Shortly after the Division was told it would be designated a ‘garrison’ or ‘semi-mobile’ Division and were expected to hold a ‘quiet sector’.  It was reported many of the men posted into the Division had no (infantry) training and had not even held a rifle.  Those who remained from the original 40th Division were to say the least cynical, knowing from experience there was no such thing as a quiet sector on the Western Front.  The Division was reconstituted on 14th June and eventually the ‘Garrison’ designation dropped. On the 24th one  Battalion from each Brigade of the 40th Division paraded and were inspected by the C in C.  Field Marshal  Haig apparently declared the B1 men ‘looked better than expected’.

 

The 40th Divisional Staff Diary (also on Ancestry) gives an account of the formation of these units.

 

The Medal Rolls would not need to show his service in the Labour Corps.  The issue of medals would only need to show his first unit which would be engraved on the medals, and his last unit who issued the medals through the Record Office.  

 

I suspect the LC number on the AVL is a transcription error, 116 =110, and no numbers ended in ‘E’.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[corisande]

16 hours ago, Ali Blake said:

I have his MIC (his name is listed as Sydney Bradshaw)

 

This seems the weakest part of the tale. How do you know you have the right MIC?

 

Also can you give any more details about him, date of birth, 1911 census, where he lived, etc. It all helps to see if we are looking at the right man

[corisande]

16 hours ago, Ali Blake said:

he was in 195th Labour Company (taken from the Absent Voters List 1918) although his service number is listed as 11045E which doesn't fit in with the allocation of numbers to that LC.

 

Have you seen the Absent Voters list rather than a transcription. Doing wild card searches, I cannot find anything like that as a Labour Corps number

 

I assume that you got your info from this site, which is a transcription

BRADSHAW, Herbert S.
54 Cartergate
195th Lab. Corps, 11045E Pte.

 

I would think it is worth contacting Grimsby Central Library who appear to hold the original

Edited 21 August , 2019 by corisande

[Ali Blake]

Many thanks to all of you for the information you've provided. It's very much appreciated.

 

Corisande, in answer to your questions.  When Grimsby men returned home they were invited to fill out a card with details of their regiment and service number.  The archive department at Grimsby Central Library found Herbert's for me.  They also provided me with a copy of the Absent Voters List which listed his LC service number as 11045E. I now know that 195th LC service number allocation was 116401-117000. 

 

Given the index card info, I then did another check for an MIC and the one named Sydney Bradshaw had the same service number for 11 QOHL and also the 15th Sherwoods.  

 

He was born in Caistor, Lincolnshire in Apr 1892. In the 1911 Census he was living in Grimsby working as a farm labourer and lodging with a family.  He was single.

 

Ken.  Thank you for your comprehensive info on the Bantams and LC.  Is there any way of finding out if Herbert joined his LC straight from the Sherwoods or transferred via the Royal Fusiliers?

 

 

[corisande]

41 minutes ago, Ali Blake said:

Given the index card info, I then did another check for an MIC and the one named Sydney Bradshaw had the same service number for 11 QOHL and also the 15th Sherwoods.  

 

Thanks, I see where you are coming from now

 

He filled up a card with Camerons and Foresters on it as his regiments, which are the same service numbers as on the MIC. That seems watertight, but it is "Sydney Bradshaw" on MIC, I assume the card he filled out is "Herbert Sidney Bradshaw"?

 

The Labour Coy information comes from a separate source, the Absent Voters list. This has a service number that cannot be linked either to him nor to Labour Corps. This seems to be the unsubstantiated info. Is that the correct address where you expected him to be living in 1918. ie "54 Cartergate"

 

One has the feeling that their may be two men called Bradshaw with various combinations of Christian names Herbert/Sidney/Sydney. Darned if I can tease it out :-(

[Ali Blake]

He gave his full name on the index card but I'm guessing he was called Sidney as this is what was used on the QOCH medal roll for him.  I can find no other Herbert Sidney Bradshaw, Herbert or Sidney Bradshaw from Grimsby who fought.  So unless there was an amazing coincidence that there were 2 men from the same town with that name, I think it is the person I'm looking for.  Grimsby Library archivists did do a check for me on the other 'Bradshaws' who filled out index cards and also the AVL and there was only one so named man. Although I appreciate that doesn't it watertight 100%.

[corisande]

It is just that I am unhappy with the records around that time,

 

He was born Herbert Sidney,he was Herbert in 1901 census, he was Herbert S in 1939 Register (dob 17 May 1892) , and he died Herbert Sidney, and it appears his grave was marked Herbert

 

It seems strange that the two references that exist in 1911 census and MIC are to a plain Sydney,

 

I concede that they could be the same man, and that if it was, there is no explanation for the name change to Sydney in 1911 and back by 1918

[kenf48]

17 hours ago, Ali Blake said:

Ken.  Thank you for your comprehensive info on the Bantams and LC.  Is there any way of finding out if Herbert joined his LC straight from the Sherwoods or transferred via the Royal Fusiliers?

 

They couldn't go directly into the Labour Corps until April 1917 as it was not formed until then, so if he left the 15th Battalion in January, as seems likely (see below) he would have to have gone to a Labour Battalion. 

 

Pte Cree’s record, as noted above, shows he was originally transferred to the 36th (Labour) Battalion Royal Fusiliers on 24th January 1917, ‘Transferred’ is struck through and he is shown as ‘Attached’.  

He was posted into 95th Company of the LC on its formation in May.

 

The transfer/cancellation note is on other records too, e.g. Frank Bramman, on the other hand a Pte Bicknell’s record has no indication he was attached to the RF.

 

Unfortunately none of the records extant are complete hence the difficulty in assessing if they were all attached to the 36th (Labour) Battalion RF.   However where Army Form B103 has survived all have identical typed entries too that of Pte Cree.

 

I can’t find a war diary for this Labour Battalion. They were, in all probability Army troops.  The diary of the 37 (Labour) Bn.RF has survived, and may give a flavour as to their duties.

 

If you subscribe to FMP you can find a number of these records by searching on 116*** Labour Corps, and Keyword 195th Company.

 

You may draw your own conclusion but on reflection I’d say they were all attached to the Royal Fusiliers for what was a relatively short period of time, prior to the formation of the Labour Corps.  As they were 'attached' rather than transferred they would have retained their Sherwood's identity/number until renumbered to the Labour Corps in May.

 

The 105th Brigade war diary makes interesting reading. 

In  December there were two inspections of men, including men from the 15th Sherwoods who had been placed into two categories, the first were those who the A.D.M.S considered 'unfit' as well as a second group who, in the opinion of the Battalion C.O. were 'unlikely to become efficient infantry soldiers '.

On 16th January Commander Third Army inspected men of the 15th Sherwoods, and three other Battalions, who in the opinion of the C.O.s were considered unlikely to become efficient infantry soldiers.   The 'sick' category seems to have been dropped.  The men of the 15th Sherwoods and 16th Cheshires who were in this category had also been inspected by the Brigade Commander on the 10th January. 

 

As detailed on the LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/35th-division/  this exercise resulted in 2784 men being transferred from across the 35th  Division to Labour units, and on its formation to the Labour Corps, effectively ending the 'Bantam' project.

 

There is no indication on individual service records as to the reason for the transfer, and it seems odd the 15th Sherwood diary makes no mention of these parades or transfers.

 

Ken

 

EDIT Digging a little deeper into the records there are men from the19th DLI who followed a similar route.  These were in 106 Brigade so it's looking very likely that many of those 'weeded out' of 35th Division were attached to the Labour Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers prior to transfer to the Labour Corps on its creation.

[Ali Blake]

Ken.  Once again many thanks for providing such comprehensive information in reply to my question.  Since the family story goes that he was subjected to gas poisoning, I just got it in my head that was the reason he ened up transferred to the LC.  Thanks to you, I now know that wasn't the case.

 

Having done a quick scan through the 11 QOCH war diary, it does state that there were some instances of men being gas poisoned.  So I suppose it's a possibility it did happen to him sometime between Jun-Nov 18.

 

Ali  

[Ron Clifton]

In one of Howard Williamson's excellent books on tracing men from medal rolls, the original number range for 195 Labour Company is indeed 116401-117000 as stated in an earlier post, but the range for 185 Labour Company is from 110401 to 111000. Assuming that the E is a mistake, his number could be 11045x and his company 185 and not 195. This kind of transcription error, or mistake arising from the man himself, are not that uncommon.

 

Both of these companies did serve in France so if he was with them, then Labour Corps should appear on his MIC. Conversely, he may have been sent back to the UK after having been gassed and not returned to overseas service.

 

Ron

[Ali Blake]

Thanks Ron.  I've done another check re the AVL and found his number listed as 11645E (typo on my part putting in 11045E).  I suppose there is still as possibility that he was gassed during his time in 15th SF but it does seem more likely that he was sent to the LC as deemed unfit for front line service.  I've checked with a relative today - Herbert died before I was born - and he was only 4'10"!!!!

 

If the family story is true about him being gassed it may be that it happened when he was transferred from LC to 11 QOHL.  I just need to work out how to use the Times Online archive at my local library to check the daily/weekly casualty lists for his service in both regiments.  I'm not finding it user friendly and the staff have no idea how to use it.

 

Ali

 

 

[kenf48]

 

The medal index cards were compiled from the Rolls.

 

As previously noted for the administration of the issue of the ‘war medals’ it was only necessary to show the unit he first entered theatre with, to be engraved on the medals and his last unit so the Record Office could cross reference the address on discharge.  Any other units have no relevance for the issue of medals, the Medal Rolls and the corresponding mic are not a service record. 

There is no consistency over the completion of the Rolls, the London Regiment for example list every unit with dates, other units show interim units but just as many simply list the two units required to facilitate the efficient issue of the medals.

 

Men who were ‘lightly gassed’ often spent a couple of weeks in a medical facility in France.  In the medical records you can often see dozens of men from a particular Battalion.  

 

I can’t find Pte Bradshaw in the casualty lists either.  All we know fo certain is that he was in medical category B1 when transferred from the Labour Corps to the QOCH.   

 

Incidentally my library, East Sussex, allows you to access The Times archive from home but I know from other threads on here not all do.

 

Ken

[Ali Blake]

Ken. My local library doesn't seem to allow access from home.  As you say, it may be he suffered some slight effects of gassing at some point and, after minor treatment, he was fit enough to return to duties.

 

Everyone, especially you, have been most helpful and I am most grateful for all the information.  It's been a big learning curve for me as the previous family members I've done some research on had some existing service records.  Herbert has certainly taxed the old brain cells!!!

 

Regards

 

Ali