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rolt968

Pte George T Christie706898, 54 CEF: Original Burial Place

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rolt968

I would be grateful for help with the interpretation of two documents which differ (a little) about the original location of George Christie's burial:

The CWGC (Concentration of Graves) document gives S.23.c

 

CWGCA.jpg.34a755db8f44b1b3cf8bc4b5e435e809.jpg

 

while the Canadian War Graves Document (ancestry) gives S.22.b.6.3.

CanWG.jpg.ce98ad516ddd3d2d7a4477cf6527dfcb.jpg

 

I'm aware that grid references estimated by different people are liable to disagree.

Were these two documents compiled independently of each other?

(I had wondered if the clerk typing the CWGC document had erroneously typed one set of dittoes too many.)

 

RM

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Cheshire22

It’s hard to say, through the passage of time.  

 

The canadian records would have been kept in Canada, I would suspect the iwgc would have supplied the information to them.  

 

So i think heavy fingers on the keys

 

Have you plotted them to see what the distance is between them is. 

 

Im tending to go with the Canadian records being the accurate ones

 

 

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rolt968

Thank you.

Since Lt. R L Johnson came from the same battalion and was killed on the same day, I thought I would look at the Canadian War Graves document for him:696720047_LtJohnsonGWF.jpg.25197f4deeb2573f99605e9cdc6653e2.jpg

 

S.22.a.8.3. seems a reasonable "different" grid reference for S.22.b. (at the least only two tenths out).

 

Can anyone tell me what "Bn" in the column "Was Cross on Grave?" in Graves Concentration document means? Is it too obvious read that as meaning that a cross had been placed by the battalion?

 

RM

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Cheshire22

Looking it other COB’s, that Bn means that a Battalion Cross was over the grave 

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rolt968
8 minutes ago, Cheshire22 said:

Looking it other COB’s, that Bn means that a Battalion Cross was over the grave 

Many thanks. I wondered if that was it. No other reason for identification was given.

RM

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rolt968

Here are the trench maps (National Library of Scotland):

Early 1916:

429967265_Feb1916.jpg.3dde0e5b89a5e445f53d976e9f7e1c64.jpg

 

 

November 1917:

864821412_Nov1917.jpg.eb3f2827834f0d92864ccdf9ee8616f4.jpg

 

Autumn 1918:

22730393_Sep1918.jpg.5964f49398d90c6ef068fd6e5c5d1d5d.jpg

 

I'm not sure they add anything (apart from the fact that the location is matches the distances and directions from the places given), but looking at the contours (only) you can see why there might be confusion between 22b and 23c.

RM

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spof

Hi @rolt968

 

I've moved this to Recovering the Fallen to attract the attention of those who do this a lot - particularly member @laughton

 

Glen

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laughton

Here are the burial cards for the three (3) men on the top of that concentration report (Christie, Pulsifer and Gillis):

It initially appears as a lot of variation, but notice the overlap and uncertanty in the coordinates in green and orange. I would say this tells us they were all found at the same location. Below the images you will see that location is revealed!

 

Gillis

36c.S.15.c.4.0 or 36c.S.22.b.6.3

Pulsifer

36c.S.15.c.4.0

Christie

36c.S.22.b.6.3

1kx23ldpc49tn5q6g.jpg

 

v607oixdtar0idp6g.jpg

 

xwsy3c5sny6afqt6g.jpg

jq8osekvvjzx3jt6g.jpg

 

1dk2phnxar3js8j6g.jpg

 

ibbhjq76yzkra2f6g.jpg

2aacs0w7iqlx5n86g.jpg

 

gagusnm85fplh446g.jpg

 

rekfnz0d117v06n6g.jpg

 

The answer to the question lies in the E-13 card of Corporal GIllis as that says that he was exhumed from Canadian Cemetery CD7. (see CEFSG topic here)

 

The August 2017 spreadsheet can be downloaded (or viewed online) at: https://cefresearch.ca/internal-projects/canadian-battlefield-summary-list/

 

C= Canadian

D= 4th Division

7 = numerical sequence of the cemetery

 

On that page you can also download (or view online) a copy of the Exchange List, what I commonly refere to as the DAL (David Avery List):

CEFSG CWGC Cemetery Exchange List

 

We know that cemetery was located at 36c.S.22.b.6.3 on the west slope of Vimy Ridge and Bois de la Folie, north of the Ecole Commune. My guess is that it was a large space where remains were gathered and buried. They may have tried to sort them into their brigade and battalion when they placed the bodies there for the first burial.There were a number of other Canadian cemeteries in that area, including CD5 at 36.S.21.a.6.7, Canadian Cemetery Gunner's Corner 36c.S.15.a.20.92 and Canadian Cemetery Souchez at 36.c.S.15.a.7.0.

 

The Canadian E-13 was based on the information that was received from the D.G.R. We have never been able to located the files, such as "BR/2222/D.G.R.E." but we wish we could! The E-13 are the "Black Binders" that were created at the end of the war.

 

The Cirucumstance of Casualty records are the "Brown Binders". Some of the records are missing, in particular anything after "Sims". They were based on a consolidation of information. Quite often they still list a soldier as having "no known burial" even though they were exhumed and buried later, telling us that the files were not always updated with new information.

Edited by laughton

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rolt968

Thank you very much. That is excellent information!

 

I am glad I asked the question I have learned a lot.

 

RM

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