1/6th Bn South Staffordshire Regt - Pte Fred Dumville

[John Knopp]

I am part of Local History group in North Yorkshire and we are creating a record of those from the villages of Snape and Well who were killed in WW1, Fred ( 31814) died of his wounds in a temporary military hospital near Newport, Monmouthshire on 1 Feb 1919. I have found his medal record but nothing else. I presume his service record was among the 'burnt files'  We know he was buried in the graveyard in Well, the CWGC headstone is there.

 

From a family contact we have that his wounds might be involved with the Hindenburg line in Sep 1918.

 

Can anyone please help in giving us more information on Fred's service?

 

Many thanks

 

John Knopp     

[Skipman]

If you subscribe to ancestry here are a few links. there seems to be a pension ledger card, you may have to subscribe also to Fold 3 to view it. Also Register of effects register available on ancestry. There may be more, this just a general search.

 

Click

 

Mike

Edited 16 August , 2019 by Skipman

[MaxD]

His war gratuity (Effects register) was £13.  The gratuity calculator (thank you Craig) indicates he had enlisted in the month from 2 April 1916.

 

The war diary of 1/6 S Staffs does not, as is normal, name any of the soldier casualties.  In September 1918 the casualties included 175 wounded.

 

Max

[ss002d6252]

To tighten up on what my calculator shows with regards to the war gratuity;

 

#31805 was issued 30 Oct 16
#31819 was issued 01 Nov 16

Fred's war gratuity indicates he enlisted April 16 so he had 6 months service prior to being transferred to the South Staffs and allocated one of their numbers.

 

Craig

[PRC]

On 16/08/2019 at 14:52, John Knopp said:

I am part of Local History group in North Yorkshire and we are creating a record of those from the villages of Snape and Well who were killed in WW1, Fred ( 31814) died of his wounds in a temporary military hospital near Newport, Monmouthshire on 1 Feb 1919. I have found his medal record but nothing else. I presume his service record was among the 'burnt files'  We know he was buried in the graveyard in Well, the CWGC headstone is there.

 

From a family contact we have that his wounds might be involved with the Hindenburg line in Sep 1918.

 

Can anyone please help in giving us more information on Fred's service?  

 

Is there in any mileage in looking at this from the perspective of  age – if only to look at what should have happened. It’s not a definate that tells us what did happen but maybe a yardstick to check against.  The CWGC webpage shows him as aged 20 when he died on the 1st February 1919. The GRO death index for England & Wales has him recorded as “Dunville” but also shows his age as 20.

 

On the two Censuses for England & Wales that he would have been recorded on, in 1901, (31st March), he was 3, and in 1911, (2nd April), he was 13. His birth was registered in the Bedale Civil Registration District of Yorkshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1898. I couldn’t find an online baptism record for him at familysearch or freereg, as that might have given an exact date of birth.

 

Even if he was 21 the day after he died, (assuming the correct age is given), the earliest he could have been 19 – the legal age he could be sent overseas -was the 2nd February 1917. Taking into account the 42 days allowed to register a birth with the Civil Authorities, a birth registered on the 1st April could have been for a child born as early as the middle of February.

 

Yes he could have lied about his age but look at the date he joined the Army – April 1916. That’s very likely either his age group being called up under the Derby Scheme or him becoming liable for National Service on reaching 18 – (sometime between mid-February and the 2nd April based on the information currently available).

 

On 16/08/2019 at 16:01, MaxD said:

His war gratuity (Effects register) was £13.  The gratuity calculator (thank you Craig) indicates he had enlisted in the month from 2 April 1916.

 

Assuming his age was known by the authorities to be 18 in 1916, I woud believe he was called up on his 18th birthday and posted to an unknown trainining battalion, but non South Staffs. He would do his basic training and then maybe some specialist training. On reaching 18 and a half, (October 1916?) he is posted to a UK based battalion of the South Staffordshire Regiment. There he gets a new service number and continues training, waiting to turn 19. On reaching that birthday he is sent as part of a draft to a Battalion of a Regiment serving in a Theatre of War – but which battalion?

 

On 16/08/2019 at 17:24, ss002d6252 said:

To tighten up on what my calculator shows with regards to the war gratuity;

 

#31805 was issued 30 Oct 16
#31819 was issued 01 Nov 16

Fred's war gratuity indicates he enlisted April 16 so he had 6 months service prior to being transferred to the South Staffs and allocated one of their numbers.

 

Checking CWGC again the only other man recorded with a service number 318** and serving with the South Staffordshire Regiment was Private 31870 Frank Yeomans. He was killed in action, (SDGW) on the 12th May 1917 serving with the 1st Battalion. (SDGW & CWGC). No age is shown on CWGC. It may be worth checking Ancestry for the Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank as that may be an error about the unit on CWGC – it wouldn’t be the first time. He has no known grave but there is no obvious International Committee of the Red Cross record for him.

 

Checking SDGW for place of residence and then the 1911 Census of England & Wales, it looks like Frank Yeomans was about 3 years older than Fred Dumville, so there wouldn’t have been the same age issue holding up his despatch to a Theatre of War.

 

So Fred and Frank may have gone out to France at the same time and served together either with the 1st Battalion or the 1st/6th. The Service Medal Roll for Fred, (on Ancestry) may give some idea of whether Fred served with more than one battalion of the South Staffordshire Regiment.

 

The 1st Battalion had been in France & Flanders since the 6th October 1914, while the 1st/6th entered that Theatre of War on the 3rd March 1915, so Fred definitely went out as part of a draft.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/south-staffordshire-regiment/

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[John Knopp]

Peter, 

 

Thankyou for all of the information you have provided, it certainly gives clarity to the dates leading up to his joining the 1/6th. I appreciate that he will not be named in the War Diaries as an individual private but I would liked to have gained some idea of what the Battalion was doing in the period he was most likely injured. I tried Ancestry and it's war diaries, I regret to say I gave up after 5000 entries of 130000 plus, there only seemed to be reference to 1/6 North Staffs  or 1/5th S Staffs.I know 1/5 were in the same Brigade but could see no mention of 1/6th. I wonder was I giving Ancestry the wrong information? tried using the 'Exact'  for South Staffs and 1/6th and it said nil answer!. 

 

Anyway many thanks

 

John

 

 

    

[charlie962]

40 minutes ago, John Knopp said:

I regret to say I gave up 

Its probably there somewhere but you could cut to the chase and pay 3.50 to Discovery National Archives here

 

Charlie

[PRC]

On 16/08/2019 at 14:52, John Knopp said:

From a family contact we have that his wounds might be involved with the Hindenburg line in Sep 1918.

 

 I've not checked it out but there is a book on the 46th Midland Division, of which the 1st/6th Battalion South Staffs was part, called "Breaking the Hindenburg Line, the Story of the 46th (North Midland) Division". The original dates from 1919, but there was a Naval & Military Press reprint in 2002.

 

The book itself is available as a free download on the archive.org site, although something wierd seems to be having with the displayed version - it shows the mount for holding the page while it was photograped - but hopefully thats not the case on all the formats available.

https://archive.org/details/breakhindenburg00priesuoft

 

I only have a free account on Ancestry so don't get to see War Diaries until Ancestry have a free weekend. If it's any help I normally go to the war diaries search page.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/ukwardiarieswwi/

 

I've just used the drop downs on the right of the page to give me:-

Regiment or Unit: South Staffordshire Unit

Division: 46th Division.

It then gives me the choice of 1/5th and 1/6th. If I go any further it sends me to the subscription screen - but if you have a paid account then you should be able to take the next step and see the War diary.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Cheers

Peter

Edited 19 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[John Knopp]

Peter, 

 

Thankyou - if only I had know about the right click!, That's what old sweats are for.

 

John 

t 

[MaxD]

The full text version of the book Peter cites about 46 Div works:

 

https://archive.org/stream/breakhindenburg00priesuoft/breakhindenburg00priesuoft_djvu.txt

 

Should be good enough to allow you to decide whether it helps or not for wider context..

 

Max