Pls help with this medal card..regiments,ranks

[J w mims]

Hello

I am trying to figure out a medal card. The soldier is Sgt Syndey Potter Mimms # 204877.i cant figure out his regiments and battalion and where and when he served during the war. I also dont understand if he went up or down in rank and why? I do belive he survived the war. Thanks as always for your help and advice! 

Thank You,

James Mims

[Dave66]

Hello James,

his medal roll shows he was with the 4th kings own Yorkshire light infantry (acting WO2), and then moved to 23rd Northumberland fusiliers (sergeant).

Ancestry link here, screenshot below....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5119/41629_626640_11540-00081?pid=5304345&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dmgm33%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D5119%26gsfn%3DSydney%26gsln%3DMimms%26gsfn_x%3DNP_NN%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Dl37%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D5304345%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mgm33&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

Dave.

[PRC]

The 1/4th KOYLI Battalion was a Territorial Force unit and this is reflected in the remarks section of the card "Disem" (Disembodied) rather than Class Z or Discharged. Territorial Force units were mobilised (embodied) in times of war. That in itself would tend to indicate he survived the war.

 

With that low a service number he was almost certainly a pre-war Territorial - in fact he might even go back pre-1908 to the Volunteer Battalions. His seniority of rank probably reflects both his time served and the problems the Territorial Force had in retaining men during the transition from the Volunteer Battalions and the subsequent problem the new Territorial Force Battalions had in recruiting and retaining new men.

 

The 1st/4th went out to France in April 1915. The fact that Sydney Mimms didn't qualify for the 1915 Star would indicate that he was already elsewhere - possibly the 2/4 or possibly he had already moved to provide part of a cadre of a newly formed service battalion like the 23rd Northumberland Fusiliers. If he stayed with the KOYLI  then he would have been renumbered into a six digit number range at the start of 1917 with a number starting 20*****

 

The 23rd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers only landed in France in January 1916, so even a soldier who went over then would only qualify for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.

 

If he was only an Acting WOII then it would be up to his new Battalion whether he was confirmed in that rank, which in turn would depend on their organistaional set-up. If they had a full establishment of WOII's they wouldn't need him in that role.

 

He seems to be part of a batch who were transferred to the Northumberland Fusiliers - a quick check of the Discovery Catalogue at the National Archive shows:

204878 A\Corporal Henry V Taylor was 4304 Yorkshire Light Infantry

204879 A\Serjeant Joe E McCue ex 34701 NFus, was 235110 Yorkshire Light Infantry

204880 Private Joe Wolfenden was 4995 1/4th Yorkshire Light Infantry.

204881 Private Martin L Colton was 5490 4th Yorkshire Light Infantry

204882 Private Patrick Carney was 2069 1/4th Yorkshire Light Infantry.

 

You might want to do a wider search to see if you can track down any surviving records for men with nearby service numbers. If any of them have surviving service records then it may give some insight into the path your man's war time Army career went.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 16 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[MaxD]

Picking up Peter's at the other end so to speak. there is a consistency with men in the "new" Territorial Force KOYLI battalions.

61 attested 1 Apr 1908 5 Bn  previously a Volunteer in the Y&L

62      "            "             4 Bn             "                                  KOYLI

64      "            "              5 Bn                                               Y&L

67      "            "               5 Bn

 

Not definitive but indicative of a volunteer attesting to the TF as Peter suggested.

 

Max

Edited 16 August , 2019 by MaxD
typo

[ss002d6252]

I'd agree with the above, it's almost always a case that the lowest numbered men were those who had been volunteers prior to the TF forming and re-engaged in April 08.

 

Craig

[Medaler]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

The 1st/4th went out to France in April 1915. The fact that Sydney Mimms didn't qualify for the 1915 Star would indicate that he was already elsewhere - possibly the 2/4 or possibly he had already moved to provide part of a cadre of a newly formed service battalion like the 23rd Northumberland Fusiliers. If he stayed with the KOYLI  then he would have been renumbered into a six digit number range at the start of 1917 with a number starting 20*****

 

 

 

I'm not sure the emphasis is quite right. If he has 1/4 KOYLI on his MIC then surely he first served overseas with them - after 31/12/15 as no Star entitlement. So, looks to me like he was possibly 4th KOYLI, moved to 2/4 KOYLI after war was declared and they were formed (perhaps he hadn't volunteered for overseas service?). Then, with the advent of the Military Service Act in 1916, he was sent to join 1/4 KOYLI overseas. At some point after that (but before 1/4 KOYLI renumbered in March (ish) of 1917) moving to 23rd NF - who I note were reduced to cadre strength in mid May of 1918.

 

I feel the connection to KOYLI went back (as others have already said) way pre-war - otherwise his KOYLI service number on the MIC would have been way higher. Similarly, if he had been with them when they renumbered, his 6 digit number would also have appeared on the MIC.

 

Does that all make sense?

 

Regards,

Mike

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, Medaler said:

I'm not sure the emphasis is quite right. If he has 1/4 KOYLI on his MIC then surely he first served overseas with them - after 31/12/15 as no Star entitlement. So, looks to me like he was possibly 4th KOYLI, moved to 2/4 KOYLI after war was declared and they were formed (perhaps he hadn't volunteered for overseas service?). Then, with the advent of the Military Service Act in 1916, he was sent to join 1/4 KOYLI overseas. At some point after that (but before 1/4 KOYLI renumbered in March (ish) of 1917) moving to 23rd NF - who I note were reduced to cadre strength in mid May of 1918.

 

While the standing instruction was that units served with in the UK shouldn't be included in the Service Medal Roll, some Regimental Service Service Rolls do in fact include them. It seems almost to be a question of personal taste - regiments sharing the same records office have widely varying policies. In my very limited experience the Northumberland Fusiliers seems to be one of those that does list UK only units.

 

And of course there are those drafts sent from a Home Service Battalion intended for a fighting battalion who are redirected on reaching the Infantry Base Depot. Technically for a brief administrative period they may have "served" overseas with the fighting battalion, but man and unit never saw each other. To a records clerk in 1919 that may have been good enough to include the details on the roll.

 

However the route and emphasis suggested by Medaler is equally valid - that's why it may be a case of sifting the nearby Northumberland Fusiliers service numbers to try and establish a pattern from any surviving service records.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Medaler]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

 

While the standing instruction was that units served with in the UK shouldn't be included in the Service Medal Roll, some Regimental Service Service Rolls do in fact include them. It seems almost to be a question of personal taste - regiments sharing the same records office have widely varying policies. In my very limited experience the Northumberland Fusiliers seems to be one of those that does list UK only units.

 

And of course there are those drafts sent from a Home Service Battalion intended for a fighting battalion who are redirected on reaching the Infantry Base Depot. Technically for a brief administrative period they may have "served" overseas with the fighting battalion, but man and unit never saw each other. To a records clerk in 1919 that may have been good enough to include the details on the roll.

 

However the route and emphasis suggested by Medaler is equally valid - that's why it may be a case of sifting the nearby Northumberland Fusiliers service numbers to try and establish a pattern from any surviving service records.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Thanks Peter. Not that it relates to this chap, but I have seen former Notts & Derby men's Notts & Derby numbers quoted on MIC's along with a MGC identity and number. The thought seems to be that many of them didn't serve with Notts & Derby units overseas at all. It makes your 3rd paragraph quite pertinent - and I had forgotten about that possibility.

 

I appreciate your backing the idea that my thought has logic to it - the finer points of these MIC entries and the different ways to interpret them is an area where I need lessons, so you have helped me too.

 

Many thanks,

Mike

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter and Mike,

Brilliant Research thinking!

You are both a credit to the GWF...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[TEW]

Perhaps a small point but his pair were returned 'incorrectly stamped'. Were his first set stamped 1/4 York's LI and the replacement with just KOYLI?

TEW

[Medaler]

I think we may be missing a trick. I don't think anyone else has mentioned this.

 

21/22/23/24 Northumberland Fusiliers were all styled as "Tyneside Scottish" - and were all "Service" Bns. I had a sudden jerk of memory that sent me flying to what I laughingly call my collection. I have medals to casualties in 21st and 22nd Bns. Now fairly obviously that's not 23rd Bn as we are talking here, BUT my blokes both had 5 digit service numbers. The Northumberland Fusilier number we have for Mimms is 6 digits, and is now screaming TF at me.

 

I am pretty sure from my experience with Foresters that men who passed from their TF Bns to their Regular or Service Bns. did not renumber as they did so, because they were staying in the regiment. This is leading me to think that Mimms transferred from KOYLI to a Northumberland Fusilier TF unit before joining their 23rd Bn. and was given a 6 digit number by that TF unit.

 

I'm not sure where that takes us, but it might be important.

 

Regards,

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Yes, a 6 digit number (in the infantry) was typical of having been renumbered as a territorial - #204877 was a number from the 4th Bn's range.

 

I have seen numbers in the 'first' territorial battalion in a regiment apparently used where a TF number was needed for admin purposes rather than them having actually served with that unit - I suspect that is why they were given a substantially larger allocation of 6 digit numbers than the other TF battalions in a regiment.

 

EDIT:

LLT states

 

If a TF infantryman subsequently transferred to a different corps (infantry or otherwise), he received a new number. He was initially posted to a TF unit of his new corps, renumbered with a TF number, and then could be posted to a regular unit – which means he may never have actually served in the TF unit associated with his new number.

 

Craig

[Medaler]

10 hours ago, TEW said:

Perhaps a small point but his pair were returned 'incorrectly stamped'. Were his first set stamped 1/4 York's LI and the replacement with just KOYLI?

TEW

 

Now that is an interesting question. I am pretty sure that I have circular medals to KOYLI casualties that are named with the regiment styled as KOYLI and Yorks L. I.

 

Mike

[Medaler]

14 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Yes, a 6 digit number (in the infantry) was typical of having been renumbered as a territorial - #204877 was a number from the 4th Bn's range.

 

I have seen numbers in the 'first' territorial battalion in a regiment apparently used where a TF number was needed for admin purposes rather than them having actually served with that unit - I suspect that is why they were given a substantially larger allocation of 6 digit numbers than the other TF battalions in a regiment.

 

EDIT:

LLT states

 

If a TF infantryman subsequently transferred to a different corps (infantry or otherwise), he received a new number. He was initially posted to a TF unit of his new corps, renumbered with a TF number, and then could be posted to a regular unit – which means he may never have actually served in the TF unit associated with his new number.

 

Craig

 

Thanks Craig,

 

I'm not sure I'm adding any value here, but I am learning.

 

Regards,

Mike

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Medaler said:

 

Thanks Craig,

 

I'm not sure I'm adding any value here, but I am learning.

 

Regards,

Mike

I think you introduce a valid research point that, although he has a NFus. TF service number he probably never served as a TF man with them and instead passed through direct to the Service Battalion.

Craig

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Craig and Mike,

Very dilligent researching/analysing a tricky subject by both of you. It all makes fascinating reading.

Perhaps that is partly why I collect to Officers Only?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 17 August , 2019 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[tullybrone]

2 hours ago, Medaler said:

I think we may be missing a trick. I don't think anyone else has mentioned this.

 

21/22/23/24 Northumberland Fusiliers were all styled as "Tyneside Scottish" - and were all "Service" Bns. I had a sudden jerk of memory that sent me flying to what I laughingly call my collection. I have medals to casualties in 21st and 22nd Bns. Now fairly obviously that's not 23rd Bn as we are talking here, BUT my blokes both had 5 digit service numbers. The Northumberland Fusilier number we have for Mimms is 6 digits, and is now screaming TF at me.

 

I am pretty sure from my experience with Foresters that men who passed from their TF Bns to their Regular or Service Bns. did not renumber as they did so, because they were staying in the regiment. This is leading me to think that Mimms transferred from KOYLI to a Northumberland Fusilier TF unit before joining their 23rd Bn. and was given a 6 digit number by that TF unit.

 

I'm not sure where that takes us, but it might be important.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

Hi,

 

I’d echo Kim’s comments re the combined research.

 

I’d just flag up what I think is likely just a typo in the quoted post. Tyneside Scottish Brigade were 20/21/22/23 Battalions NF. 1st Tyneside Irish were 24th NF. I had great uncle’s serve as original enlistments in each brigade.

 

Steve

[BullerTurner]

This is all most informative and the 6 digit TF renumbering is a new wrinkle to me.

[rolt968]

Apologies, I have come to this discussion late.

 

He has neither a 1914 nor a 1914-15 Star. He seems to have been a pre- territorial war. He doesn't seem to have a Territorial Force war Medal. Doesn't this support Medaler's suggestion that he had not volunteered for service overseas - at least not by the required date in the Autumn of 1914. (At least in theory.)

 

RM

[johnboy]

Some of the TF men on the medal roll are shown with a battalion prefix ie 1/4 battalion prefixed 4 1/7 battalion  prefixed 7

[ss002d6252]

27 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Some of the TF men on the medal roll are shown with a battalion prefix ie 1/4 battalion prefixed 4 1/7 battalion  prefixed 7

Usually a TF prefix was used when men moved between battalions of the same regiment and there was a risk that they could be confused with the existing man in that battalion. E.g. #1234 4th battalion moved to 5th battalion so he would be referred to as #4/1234 so that he was distinguished from 5th battalions existing #1234.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

42 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Apologies, I have come to this discussion late.

 

He has neither a 1914 nor a 1914-15 Star. He seems to have been a pre- territorial war. He doesn't seem to have a Territorial Force war Medal. Doesn't this support Medaler's suggestion that he had not volunteered for service overseas - at least not by the required date in the Autumn of 1914. (At least in theory.)

 

RM

I'd agree with that idea.

Craig

[Medaler]

5 hours ago, tullybrone said:

 

Hi,

 

I’d echo Kim’s comments re the combined research.

 

I’d just flag up what I think is likely just a typo in the quoted post. Tyneside Scottish Brigade were 20/21/22/23 Battalions NF. 1st Tyneside Irish were 24th NF. I had great uncle’s serve as original enlistments in each brigade.

 

Steve

 

Whoops! - Sorry. See what I mean? - you have to watch me for errors. You are quite right.

 

Incidentally, the only reason I have medals in my collection to the Tyneside Scottish is that they were both local Chesterfield lads, and are remembered on my local memorials.

 

Regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

5 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Craig and Mike,

Very dilligent researching/analysing a tricky subject by both of you. It all makes fascinating reading.

Perhaps that is partly why I collect to Officers Only?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Ha! - I know the square root of 0 about officers medals (and perhaps not a great deal more about enlisted men). As I have said before, we will never be found bidding against each other at auctions! Such a huge variety in this subject isn't there?

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mike,

You are far too modest!

Getting one's head around Other Ranks' medals is like rocket science compared to the ease of researching an Officer - especially a posh one (of which there were many).

I have just successfully (thanks to GWF stalwarts) wound up researching an Old Contemptible Spr., RE (latterly commnd into the IARO). His Image was found only because he had become a local Councillor, and was photographed taking Office.

Kindest regards,

Kim.