The official end of the war

[Niall Cox]

I hope this is in the right place. I've been following a thread on the 'Cemeteries and memorials' section, which talks about the end of the war being on 31August 1921, following the Treaty of Versaiiles, and this has puzzled me for some time. As the Treaty was signed on June 28th 1919, and implemented on 10th January 1920, why did it take so long to 'officially' end the war - were we still at war, if so who with, and what exactly was ended in August '21. I understand about troops being in Russia etc. but how could the war still have been going on 'officially' so long after it seemed to have ended?

Sorry for rambling

Niall

[AOK4]

Niall,

11 November 1918 was only a so-called armistice, this meant not a surrender of Germany. It was not until the Treaty of Versailles and the other treaties discussed there were officially implemented by all countries involved that the war was officially over.

For instance the economical blockade of Germany by the Allies, causing a lot of misery and famine in Germany, continued until Germany signed the treaty. There were also troops on the borders of Germany.

Jan

[Terry Denham]

The Treaty had to be ratified by the governments of all the signatories and that took some time after signing. Until then we were still (very technically) at war with Germany.

The UK Parliament declared the war to be over officially on 31.08.21. This was then the date for all government purposes - pensions etc - and was adopted by IWGC as their cut-off date.

[Niall Cox]

Thanks chaps - still seems mighty odd that it took more than two years after the Treaty was signed and a year and a half after implementation to finish it off - Government hasn't quickened up any in the intervening years!

Niall

[mordac]

The treaty process that ended The Great War took longer to conclude than the war itself. There wasn't just one treaty that was negotiated and signed, but six principal treaties of peace and numerous other treaties and agreements.

The last principle treaty signed was the "Treaty of Peace between the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Roumania, and Turkey" signed at Lausanne on July 24, 1923 and ratified by Britain on August 6, 1924.

The last minor treaty signed was the "Treaty of Peace between the British Empire, France, Italy and Japan as the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, and Greece relative to Thrace" signed at Sèvres on August 10, 1920 and ratified by Britain on August 6, 1924.

Considering the issues being negotiated and the number of governments at the table I'm surprised the process only took six years.

Garth

[Terry_Reeves]

And this is the reason that so many British troops were kept under arms well into 1919 and why so many men were transferred to a new class of reserve, the "Z" Reserve, formed on December 3rd 1918. There were very real concerns that Germany would not agree to the terms of a peace treaty and war might break out again which would require an emergency re-mobilization.

Terry Reeves

[Niall Cox]

More thanks to Garth and Terry for expanding.

Niall

[brownag]

When looking through a local paper of November 1918 I noticed there was very little space given to the Armistice, it didn't even rate front page coverage at first. The impression I got was that at home it was just considered a lull in the fighting, and no-one was getting their hopes up too high in case the war started again.

Adam

[armourersergeant]

With regards to British troops in occupation in Germany, when did this commence? I ask this in response to the above regarding the feeling that Germany would not accept the terms, How then would the sides have 'lined up' again against each other?

Also given that the German army actually returned to their homeland still armed , I am sure i read somwhere on this forum that they marched back home with there arms which lead to the feeling they had been stabbed in the back, how did the german army 'house' themselves? Did they disband or stay together as a unit.

Ta

Arm.

[AOK4]

The occupation of the Rhineland begun as soon as the German troops had retreated across the Rhine IIRC, somewhere December 1918-January 1919.

The German army was disbanded when it got back home, where they were usually welcomed back as heroes. Some of the soldiers stayed in service and formed the Reichswehr, most of the soldiers just went home on the way back. These veterans formed so-called Freikorps sometimes (when necessary) to fight communist uprisings, attacks from Poland etc.

The history of Germany from 1918 till 1923 is very complex and extremely difficult to understand sometimes...

Jan

[armourersergeant]

Thanks Jan,

So to summarise then, by declaring the armastice the German Army did effectively surrender. If the army disbanded and the allies moved in then they had no choice but to accept what terms were enforced on them by the versailles treaty. They were in no position to decline the terms and begin operations against the allies who were im sure in force at the areas key to 'uprisings'.

I have long been of the opinion that the second world war was a direct result of the first world war and the versailles treaty and the conditions layed down there. Yet was there a better alternative given what all nations had suffered during the war and the sentiments at home? To the victor the spoils i think was an old saying.

Arm.

[mordac]

Hi Arm:

In reality, with the armistice of November 11, 1918 Germany did not surrender, they ended hostilities. World War II ended with the unconditional surrender of Germany. There's a substantial difference between the terms armistice and surrender.

Jan makes a very valid point about the complexity of the German political situation between 1918 to 1923. The Kaiser had abdicated, leadership of the German military had collapsed, the country was in political turmoil, and the German citizens were sick of war. These domestic conditions made it very difficult for the Germans to negotiate an equitable peace agreement. On the other hand, the various governments of the allied powers had their own axe to grind, so they placed onerous conditions on the vanquished during the peace process.

I think most people will agree with you; the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles planted the seeds for WWII. Another saying is: you reap what you sow.

Garth

[Ciaran Byrne]

I agree with armourersergeant when he says that the Second World War was a direct result of the Treaty of Versailles. The crippling infaltion was a result of the massive compensations that Germany was forced to pay and also the surrender of German territory was one of Hitlers main beefs and must have proved popular with the veterans from WWI whom many felt they had been betrayed.

[MartinWills]

It is not entirely true to say that inflation in Germany followed on from the Treaty of Versailles. The damage was already done by then. Between 1914 and 1919 the value of savings fell by around 75%. Housing rent was controlled by the state (effectively unchanged) and cheap secure tenancies meant that although property values were maintained the income from them became minimal and repairs fell by the wayside. Pay, particularly in the state sector was already failing to keep pace with inflation.

In short the damage was already done by 1918/19. The political instability that followed exacerbated this as did the punitive reparations resulting in the galloping inflation and collapse of the German Mark with which we are all familiar. The seeds, however, were sown during the war.

Discontent was sown amongst the veterans as the war ended. The Germans had simply planned upon winning the war and there were no plans to cope with mass demobilisation - there had always been the perception that a large army of occupation would be needed. There followed inevitable problems over housing and providing jobs for the mass of returning soldiers. Food remained in extreme short supply, particularly fats/oils which were the subject of special provisions of supply as part of he ongoing armistice arrangements. Unrest, both social and political, was inevitable.

The following few years precipitated what was already inevitable and by 1923 we have the Munich beer hall putsch. The occupation of the Rhineland was to continue and technically did not end until 1929/30 but exercised little control very the political climate which developed.

[Hedley Malloch]

A piece of history trivia: is Berwick-on-Tweed still at war with Germany?

The argument is that the national status of the town was a matter of contention between Scotland and England which was not settled in the 1702 Act of Union. The question of whether it was English or Scottish was left to be settled at some later date, but it never was. All diplomatic documents signed on behalf of the United Kingdom, including the declaration of WW1 were signed in the names of England, Scotland, Wales Ireland and Berwick-on-Tweed. All except the Treaty of Versailles to which the four countries only were signatory. So on this logic Berwick is still at war with Germany and has been since 1914.

Is this story true?

[Guest Hill 60]

So on this logic Berwick is still at war with Germany and has been since 1914.

How can the Germans sleep at night with the knowledge that the people of Berwick could, at this very moment, be preparing to invade?