Air battle near Mudros Bay 30 Sept 1917

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

 

What do you have on a air battle around Mudros Bay 30 Sept 1917

 

The Germans claim they lost two Seaplanes from the Wasserfliegerabteilung who were escorts to a Recon Seaplane when they were engaged by a British fighter formation, which shot down both escorts and chased the Recon plane back home.

 

The Germans  claim both men (pilots) were taken Prisoner wounded?

 

Are there any record of a fight on this date and any other names of the Germans or British victors?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[michaeldr]

This sounds like the same action

 

“On 30th September [1917, Flt Lt John W.] Alcock, again flying the Camel in company with Sub Flt-Lt Harold T. Mellings in the sector's only Sopwith Triplane, shot down two Albatros W 4 floatplane fighters of the German Wasserfliegerabteilung based at Chanak Kale (Canakkale) over Mudros Bay. Flugzeugobermaat Walter Krüger was killed, while his unidentified wingman was taken PoW.” 
 

from p. 53 of Sopwith Camel by Jon Guttman (from books.google.co)

Edited 9 August , 2019 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

There's another version of the action here https://airwar19141918.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/on-30-september-1917-a-busy-day-for-alcock/

[michaeldr]

Alcock's DSC for this action

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30437/supplement/13318

[michaeldr]

“Three days later, a recce over Imbros revealed a new British airfield with one large and 6 small hangars. On this same day however, the C/O of the German seaplane group was killed in a flying accident. Under new command another seaplane attack was launched on the 30th of September. A large Handley-Page 0.100 bomber had arrived at Imbros and every effort was made to destroy it. The attack was performed by Sgt. Görtner in FF.33L no.1124, Sgt. Krüger in 1048 and escorted by Lt. Müller in Rumpler 894. The formation was spotted early by British ships which opened up a barrage of fire. Soon 2 triplane fighters were spotted and after a short fight the Rumpler fighter went down in flames with a pierced petrol tank. The defenceless 1048 was soon shot down whereas 1124 escaped but later had to ditch 20 miles from its base. The threat posed by the Handley-Page however, disappeared the very same night when the aircraft ditched in the Gulf of Saros close to the Turkish coast. The crew was taken prisoners by Turkish units.”

 

[from Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919 by O Nikolajsen (2012 2nd version of disc)

 

The last sentence must be a reference to the capture of Alcock

Edited 9 August , 2019 by michaeldr

[xv229]

To add to the above, the captured German pilot, Lt. Johann Robert Müller was taken to the Malta PoW Camps, where his arrival is recorded in the ICRC online records. Also, via a fellow Malta PoW researcher, we also have a photo of Lt. Müller showing his German and Ottoman insignia.

Lt. Müller spent the rest of the war in Malta and was released on 10th July 1919, as one of several Alsace-Lorraine residents freed following signature of the Peace Treaty with Germany.

 

Hope this is of interest, Alan

[pete-c]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

“Three days later, a recce over Imbros revealed a new British airfield with one large and 6 small hangars. On this same day however, the C/O of the German seaplane group was killed in a flying accident. Under new command another seaplane attack was launched on the 30th of September. A large Handley-Page 0.100 bomber had arrived at Imbros and every effort was made to destroy it. The attack was performed by Sgt. Görtner in FF.33L no.1124, Sgt. Krüger in 1048 and escorted by Lt. Müller in Rumpler 894. The formation was spotted early by British ships which opened up a barrage of fire. Soon 2 triplane fighters were spotted and after a short fight the Rumpler fighter went down in flames with a pierced petrol tank. The defenceless 1048 was soon shot down whereas 1124 escaped but later had to ditch 20 miles from its base. The threat posed by the Handley-Page however, disappeared the very same night when the aircraft ditched in the Gulf of Saros close to the Turkish coast. The crew was taken prisoners by Turkish units.”

 

 

 

 

 

These two references to Imbros probably, I believe, refer instead to Lemnos (Mudros).  The mention of 1 large and 6 small hangars would seem to discount Imbros (Gliki).  More likely to be Mudros - either Marsh Aerodrome or the Repair Base.  The '6 small hangars' could well refer to workshops, several of which had been constructed on this site.

 

The HP 0/100 '3124', arrived at Mudros on June 8 1917 and certainly never flew from Imbros.

 

Along with Alcock (F.1 Camel) and Mellings, (Sopwith Tri-plane N5431), both up from Mudros, FSL Phillip Kenning Fowler was also involved in this action.  He took off from Tenedos in a Sopwith Pup and whilst Mellings was getting into position for a second attack, 'dived straight on the Observer's gun'.  Both the Triplane and the Pup delivered similar attacks and the Observer ceased fire, probably having been hit. 

(WOR 81, 7 Oct 1917)

Edited 9 August , 2019 by pete-c

[michaeldr]

19 minutes ago, pete-c said:

These two references to Imbros probably, I believe, refer instead to Lemnos (Mudros)

 

Pete,

yes; that would also agree with the ref given in the link in No.3 above

[michaeldr]

To add to Alan's great photograph of Müller in post No.6 above, this one from the IWM which includes Alcock, looks as though it must date from the period in question here

[pete-c]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

To add to Alan's great photograph of Müller in post No.6 above, this one from the IWM which includes Alcock, looks as though it must date from the period in question here

 

Thanks for this Michael.  Pity the IWM caption doesn't give the names of the others, although the chap on the left looks familiar.

[michaeldr]

There's a good album of photographs to be seen on this site

http://ww1.pncc.govt.nz/blog/2015/4/20/coming-soon-war-photographs-from-captain-philip-fowler-raf-squadron-leader

dedicated to Philip Fowler who is mentioned by Pete (see post No.7 above)

 

Pictures relevant here include:-

the Handley Page downed by the Turks

further pictures of Alcock

SOP Triplane at Marsh aerodrome

Mellings (together with Buckley & Bentley)

an aerial shot of the Repair Base at Lemnos

group photo of 'G' Squadron at Marsh aerodrome on Lemnos

the Sopwith triplane being flown by Mellings

Edited 10 August , 2019 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

9 minutes ago, pete-c said:

Pity the IWM caption doesn't give the names of the others, although the chap on the left looks familiar.

 

Pete,

I'm very sorry that I can't help with the names

I couldn't even get back to the IWM's site for the original - their new layout is beyond me 

[pete-c]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

To add to Alan's great photograph of Müller in post No.6 above, this one from the IWM which includes Alcock, looks as though it must date from the period in question here

 

Checking through the Fowler Album - which I have done before - I can now see why he looked so familiar!  On the left - Flt Lt Mellings.

[Guest]

Mates,

 

Many thanks for this great details on that action, never believe there would be these records.

 

The raid was one of a number from a group of six seaplanes under Hauptman Goltz, in reaction to British raids on the Naval base and City around Constanople.

 

The German Seaplane base was on the Black Sea, so the seaplanes under Goltz set up around Chanak kale to send out there attacks to the Islands.

 

The Germans also used the Bulgar base at Xanthi.

 

Michael I notice you gave "the Co was killed" "Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919 by O Nikolajsen"

 

I can't find that in German records

 

They show the first commander as;

 

Leibmann or Liebmann Ernst Capt 1915

Körner  Capt late 1915

Goltz  Capt-Lt shown during 1917 - 18

Popp LtdeZ during 1918

The only other officer of that rank is Capt Langfeld, but can't confirm if he was in the Wasserfliegerabteilung;

 

Bogazlar Özel güçleri Deniz Uçus birlikleri komutani (Strait Special forces Sea Flight troops commander) Deniz kuvvetleri Bogazlar uçak filolari komutani (Naval Strait Boats aircraft fleet commander) possibly Airforce German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) but unsure?
 

Thanks you all

S.B

Edited 9 August , 2019 by stevebecker

[michaeldr]

9 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Michael I notice you gave "the Co was killed" "Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919 by O Nikolajsen"

I can't find that in German records

They show the first commander as;

Leibmann or Liebmann Ernst Capt 1915

Körner  Capt late 1915

Goltz  Capt-Lt shown during 1917 - 18

Popp LtdeZ during 1918

The only other officer of that rank is Capt Langfeld, but can't confirm if he was in the Wasserfliegerabteilung;

 

Steve,

 

I advise you to put a question mark next to that info,

as looking at the list of names given by O Nikolajsen showing entry to and exit from Ottoman service, I can't find one to match an accidental death in early September 1917.

The name which is mentioned immediately prior to the piece which I quoted was Capt Goltz, but I understand you to have him still serving in 1918?

This is not clear at all, so if you find any further info on this, then please get back to us here.

 

Regarding the list of names which you have mentioned:

 

Leibmann or Liebmann Ernst Capt 1915: shown as Liebmann arrived May 1915

Körner  Capt late 1915: shown as an Observer (not listed under navy) arrived May 1915

Goltz  Capt-Lt shown during 1917–18: strangely he appears in the text but not in the listing

Popp LtdeZ during 1918; not listed

Capt Langfeld, but can't confirm if he was in the Wasserfliegerabteilung; shown as Langenfeld, navy & arrived September 1915

 

Regards

Michael

[Guest]

Michael,

 

Thanks mate, always good to get feed back here, as there names of German airman has me checking all sources to confirm my information.

 

Sorry, do have any more names here I missed?

 

Yes Serno records that Goltz was still commanding during 1918 when he was also given command of what I can read as;

 

 Inspector Ottoman Marineluftfahresens) Naval Avation  around July 1918

 

He seams to have split his command by what I can see as LtdeZ Popp, who appears to have taken over operational flying with the group while Goltz had other duties.

 

Late 1917 Wasserfliegerabteilung appears split between three bases, one on the Black Sea (Anatoli Kawak) to cover the coal routes, which becazme less important after the Russian R. The other, a two plane group at Mersina, Gulf of Alexandretta, and what was the main group at Chanak for these raids.

 

This base had been used early in 1915 to watch for subs in the Sea of Marmara

 

Also Xanthi Bulgarian coast was later opened up for these raids.

 

We should also not forget that the Ottomans also had three so called Sea plane Sqn's, but had a operation strength of only two planes per Sqn. One at  Izmir Smyrna, The Second at Eregli Black Sea and the third at Chanakkale. A forth was added next year at Batum

 

Its amazing the amount of operations that continued after the Gallipoli Campaign along the Ottoman Coast during the war.

 

Do you have the link to the OWH of this area in the British War Histories, I can't find my link?

 

Cheers

S.B

Edited 10 August , 2019 by stevebecker