Private G/14474 William Saunders, The Buffs

[John French]

Private Saunders was baptised in February 1900 in Saffron Walden, Essex with the Christian names William Frank (as per 1901 Census) and as such he should not have been fighting is France with the 7th Buffs.  I have found via Ancestry that he died 17/9/1918 and was buried at Unicorn Cemetery Vendhuile - both CWGC and his medal card record him as W.F.Saunders.  I cannot find his soldier's effects record, so I have no war gratuity amount to estimate his enlistment.  Please could anyone give any information about his enlistment and service record.

 

Thanks

 

John

[Dave66]

John,

his soldiers effects are here....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6129999_0149-00284?pid=609664&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DFTj3%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60506%26gsfn%3DWilliam%26gsln%3DSaunders%26gsfn_x%3DNP_NN%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Dl37%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D7%26h%3D609664%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D8&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FTj3&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

Dave.

[ss002d6252]

That war gratuity figure cannot be an actual amount so it's going to make it more difficult - war gratuity could only be paid in elements of 5s or 10s. There are odd ones you see where the war gratuity has been reduced, I know in 1919 or so issues were raised and there was an instruction that war gratuity was not to be reduced in lieu of any monies owing to the military. I suspect this is one where a deduction was made before the instruction was issued to stop doing it.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

By way of reference
G/14472 was issued 8 Aug 18 at an IBD in France to a man enlisted 13 Feb 1918

 

Craig

[John French]

Dave, thanks for the link.

 

Craig, it looks as if he may have been conscripted on his 18th birthday.  Where would he have been trained (he lived in Essex) and why did he get his serial number issued in France?  Also, did the age requirement of 19 years for overseas posting continue to the end of the war?

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Just now, John French said:

Dave, thanks for the link.

 

Craig, it looks as if he may have been conscripted on his 18th birthday.  Where would he have been trained (he lived in Essex) and why did he get his serial number issued in France?  Also, did the age requirement of 19 years for overseas posting continue to the end of the war? 

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

18h birthday would make sense.

At the time training was undertaken via specific training battalions at whatever location the army had a space for him - https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/

 

He would have had a service number with the training battalions but when he was allocated to a unit in France he was renumbered in to their sequence (There was no single army wide service number at the time).

Craig

[RussT]

He actually died on 19/09/1919

 

As noted by Craig, his War Gratuity is an odd amount (£3 15s 6d) - but when it is added to his outstanding credit of £1 4s 6d, it adds to a round £5 exactly. I have spotted these odd WG types on a number of occasions - they can consistently be treated as a Type 1 gratuity, which in this case predicts an enlistment date of June 1917.

 

The medal roll and surviving service records show he was transferred to the Buffs along with 100 other men (19 year olds) at J IBD and who were re-numbered in surname alphabetical sequence going from G/14395 Aldridge to G/14494 Woplin.

 

They enlisted as 18 or 19 years olds into the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment, then the 53rd Graduated Battalion of the same Regiment before their transfer.

 

Whilst G/14472 Rowe enlisted on 12/02/1918, G/14473 Saunders enlisted on 12/01/1917.

 

The predicted enlistment date for G/14474 William Frederick Saunders of June 1917 is therefore credible.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

As noted by Craig, his War Gratuity is an odd amount (£3 15s 6d) - but when it is added to his outstanding credit of £1 4s 6d, it adds to a round £5 exactly. I have spotted these odd WG types on a number of occasions - they can consistently be treated as a Type 1 gratuity, which in this case predicts an enlistment date of June 1917.

Good spot - I missed that one !

 

I was just going to add that surrounding men came from the 53rd YS Battalion but you beat me to it.
 

It looks like the transfer to the East Kent regiment took place at No 40 Infantry Base Depot.

 

Craig

[RussT]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

It looks like the transfer to the East Kent regiment took place at No 40 Infantry Base Depot.

 

 

I wrote J IBD but I see this was formerly known as 40 IBD, so we both agree on that !

 

Regards

[John French]

Thanks for the information, which I am gradually getting my head around.

 

Russ, I re-checked CWGC web-site and William Frank Saunders died 17/9/1918, so your man is probably a different soldier.  Your calculation that he enlisted in February 1917 by mis-stating his age as 18 years would be consistent with him being trained and posted to France sometime in 1918. Please could you tell me when the 100 man draft was sent to 7th Buffs and also a link to their war diaries, if possible

 

Craig, Soldiers Died in the Great War shows he enlisted in Chelmsford, Essex - if as above he enlisted Feb 1917, wouldn't he have gone to a Training Reserve Battalion linked to Essex (53rd Young Soldiers Battalion started May 1917)?  Also is 40 IBD located in France?

 

Thanks

 

John

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows he enlisted in Chelmsford, Essex - if as above he enlisted Feb 1917, wouldn't he have gone to a Training Reserve Battalion linked to Essex (53rd Young Soldiers Battalion started May 1917)

Regional issues went out the window way before then - at this stage of the war men would be sent to wherever the next batch of men was needed.

 

Quote

Also is 40 IBD located in France?

 

At Etaples

 

Craig

[RussT]

I must be missing something.

 

CWGC for G/14474 W F Saunders, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment), states he died on 19/09/1918.

Soldiers Died for the Great War for the same man also states 19/09/1918

Soldiers Effects Record for the same man also states 19/09/1918

 

Not sure where you are getting 17/09/1918 - can you provide a link?

 

40/IBD (or J/IBD) was at Etaples, France.

 

I said June 1917 as a predicted enlistment date, not February 1917 (that was for a different Saunders with number G/14473).

 

I would recommend you have a look at other service records for this draft of 100 men to see if they came from other Graduated Service Training Reserve Battalions

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

Edited 15 July , 2019 by RussT

[RussT]

For example, Arthur William Sorrell was part of this draft (being given the Buffs number G/14479) was an Essex man but nevertheless he was sent to join the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment.

 

They were all transferred to the Buffs on 08/08/1918.

 

Regards

[RussT]

I need to make a correction to my posting in #7.

 

The odd War Gratuity amount when added to the outstanding credit actually makes it a Type 2 War Gratuity not a Type 1 .

 

In this case a £5 Type 2 WG simply predicts less than 12 months service. This would then be consistent with every service record I've seen so far for these 100 men in that they all seem to have enlisted on 12/02/1918.

 

So the revised prediction is that William Frank Saunders was called up as a conscript on 12/02/1918.

 

Apologies for the confusion !

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

[John French]

Russ/Craig, my apologies with date of death - 19/9/1918 is correct and I mis-transcribed it to my scrappy notes.  His story now reads:

 

William enlisted in Chelmsford around June 1917 and after basic training in England in the 53^rd Young Soldiers Battalion was posted on 8^th August 1918 as Private G/14474 to the 7^th Battalion, East Kent Regiment in France.  We know he falsified his age as he could not have served in France before he was 19 years old, the youngest permitted age for service overseas.

 

The Longlongtail link Craig posted shows that the 53rd Young Soldier's Battalion was located in Kingshorn, Scotland.  Is this correct as there is no apparent link to the Royal Sussex Training establishment in Shoreham?

 

John 

[clk]

Hi John,

 

1 hour ago, RussT said:

Soldiers Effects Record for the same man also states 19/09/1918

 

More specificity (or less as it were), his Soldiers' Effects record shows:

 

 

Image sourced from Ancestry.co.uk

 

His CWGC records show his body was moved to his current resting place from map reference 62c.F.16.c.8.4, which is roughly where I've put the green dot on the image below, and is  probably very close to where he originally fell.

 

Base image sourced from the National Library of Scotland - link

 

Cross referencing to the Battalion/Brigade war diary might help a bit with establishing his likely date of death. For example if the Bn was involved in an advance, and the diaries (inc. appendix) shows that they were due to, or had, advanced beyond that point at a certain time/date. I haven't looked.

 

British War Graves will probably have an image of his current resting place that they could send to you (FOC).

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

Edited 15 July , 2019 by clk

[clk]

Hi again,

 

19 minutes ago, John French said:

We know he falsified his age as he could not have served in France before he was 19 years old, the youngest permitted age for service overseas.

 

The Long, Long Trail (link) says:

 

"A further extension of the Military Service Act on 10 April 1918, followed a serious political crisis concerning the provision of manpower – which along with a large extension of the British section of the Western Front, was cited as a prime cause of the defeat of the Fifth Army in March 1918. This act reduced the maximum age of recruitment to 50 and allowe soldiers aged 18 years and 6 months to be sent overseas as long as they had had six months training..".

 

Regards

Chris

[John French]

Sorry for delay in thanking all for your information.  We have found in a newspaper report of his death that he enlisted in February 1918 in line with Russ' 15/7/19 posting. 

 

Also British War Graves provided a photo of his headstone at Vendhuile - thanks Chris for very helpful source.

 

John

[RussT]

Thanks for posting that feedback John.

 

We got there in the end - and it's a good validation of some of the tools available for use in trying to re-construct a basic timeline of a man's service.

 

Regards

 

Russ