FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, 14276265 said: Admittedly speculation that a Battalion or Regimental officer asked for such, but clearly a design requested by some figure with authority. For such small runs, probably more than two disparate regiments had them made, and existing evidence is yet to emerge. The point is that it would not be an expensive or difficult thing to do to adapt end-of-life dies for special small runs, rather than just scrap them. Yes, I think that you make a good hypothesis. It’s just the question of how many battalions were able to do it that stretches credulity a little for me personally. The big question is how many other regiments/battalions had these special bombers badges. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Thinking about what Tony said about handling a button and it feeling and sounding lighter when tapped, would a button case, as it were, be strong enough to make such a badge? Looking more closely at both badges both do seem to be one piece, I guess we'll never know! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 19 July , 2019 Share Posted 19 July , 2019 I'm sorry Tony but I don't think this is a 'one piece' construction (though I haven't seen it in the hand) - I think it is a LNL button (made by Gaunt) with grenade flames brazed on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 July , 2019 Share Posted 20 July , 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, JulianB said: I'm sorry Tony but I don't think this is a 'one piece' construction (though I haven't seen it in the hand) - I think it is a LNL button (made by Gaunt) with grenade flames brazed on to it. Hello Julian, good to see you posting here. I am puzzled by your assessment because the only sign of brazing on both badges is where the cotter pin loops are attached at North and South. However, both badges do have a strong crimp indentation, without brazing, forming the narrow section, or neck where the flame meets the ball of the button. It is this latter that I thought must reflect the narrow space between two dies positioned side-by-side. Also I struggle to see how it can have been actual buttons, as the brass plate used to form the badges is surely weightier and more substantial than that used to create a button. Edited 20 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 20 July , 2019 Share Posted 20 July , 2019 Well OK but there is something funny about it. Amongst the Gaunt pattern books are two drawings of the Lpl Scottish bombers badge - it turns out that the second design was the one adopted. I'll be going back to those archives (NAM) in a few weeks and I'll look through to see if they did design omething for the LNL !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 July , 2019 Share Posted 20 July , 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, JulianB said: Well OK but there is something funny about it. Amongst the Gaunt pattern books are two drawings of the Lpl Scottish bombers badge - it turns out that the second design was the one adopted. I'll be going back to those archives (NAM) in a few weeks and I'll look through to see if they did design omething for the LNL !? It will be very interesting to see what you discover, Julian. It’s true that whereas we have some plural evidence that the Liverpool Scottish bombers badge existed, there is so far only this single badge for the Loyal North Lancs. Nevertheless, the similarity in construction between the two badges is striking (pun unintended), and as pointed out above, some LNL battalions did serve in the same formations as the Liverpool Scots, so perhaps it was a collective, TF initiative and endeavour. Edited 20 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 20 July , 2019 Share Posted 20 July , 2019 2 hours ago, JulianB said: Well OK but there is something funny about it. Amongst the Gaunt pattern books are two drawings of the Lpl Scottish bombers badge - it turns out that the second design was the one adopted. I'll be going back to those archives (NAM) in a few weeks and I'll look through to see if they did design omething for the LNL !? I hope you find something Julian, I've found this badge and thread most interesting. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonydb Posted 23 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2019 Hello Julian good to hear from you, a very intriguing badge, I'm 100% sure its one piece construction, look forward to any information you can find in the NAM archives. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, most interesting. Cheers Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 24 July , 2019 Share Posted 24 July , 2019 (edited) On 20/07/2019 at 14:55, JulianB said: Well OK but there is something funny about it. Amongst the Gaunt pattern books are two drawings of the Lpl Scottish bombers badge - it turns out that the second design was the one adopted. I'll be going back to those archives (NAM) in a few weeks and I'll look through to see if they did design omething for the LNL !? I will just add courtesy of my friend and colleague Dennis Reeves some information regarding the Liverpool Scottish trade badges The pocketbook of Lieutenant-Colonel Jonathan Davidson, Commanding 1/10 KLR (1st Bn of the Liverpool Scottish) in France and Belgium, records expenditure of 12s 6d (62.5 p) on Snipers Badges on 29 March 1916 (the figure is in sterling amidst a list of other expenditure in French Francs so presumably they are being obtained from the UK) and further expenditure of £1 19s 0d (£1.95) on badges for scouts snipers and bombers, possibly dated 26 July 1916 (although it is appended after this date in the list of expenditure and may have been before this date and added as a 'catch-up' entry - the battalion is about to become involved in serious action at Guillemont. with the 55th (West Lancashire) Division. The Bank of England inflation calculator pitches the 1916 pound at being worth £85 in 2018. There is undated correspondence between Davidson and Colonel C Forbes Bell VD (a senior retired figure in the Liverpool Scottish) regarding Grenade badges, patrol and engineers' badges - as a civil engineer of some distinction, Davidson was quite keen on his battalion 'engineers'. The Gaunt designs appear to be dated August 1915 (Julian - if this is your information - thanks) when bombing was taking a very high profile in battalion training. Whilst the one that was manufactured appears to be based on a button the Liverpool Scottish used the GS button or leather football buttons during the war and a Liverpool Scottish button, I am told, did not appear in use until circa 1924 Edited 24 July , 2019 by Ian Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 July , 2019 Share Posted 25 July , 2019 Just as clarification, regimental buttons at that time were generally only worn by officers (with some special exceptions like Guards, cavalry, Royal Marines, etc.). Ergo the button dies used for the bombers badges would have been those of the officers pattern within the GAUNT works. NB. When buttons were adopted for ORs circa 1924 there were differences in the quality of manufacture but not the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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