Serjeant's Stripes

[DaveR]

Can anyone tell me why my great grandfather's serjeant's stripes appear to be coloured black? He is standing furthest left.

thanks

Dave Risley

[Grovetown]

The black rank is indicative of a rifle regiment. The cap badge appears to be South Lancs (rather than, say, Middx). I'm not sure if the S. Lancs had rifle battalions, but I'd reckon that he earnt his rank in a rifle regiment and kept it up on transferring in. He would have had black buttons too, but seems to have changed these.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

[DaveR]

Thanks for the info.

The unit is 11th South Lancs (St Helens Pioneers). I gather they only became a pioneer battalion after enlisting but before going overseas. Local reports say the men were disappointed to become pioneers when they thought they were enlisting as infantry.

cheers

Dave Risley

[Grovetown]

No problem Dave

I don't think they would have been disappointed for long, finding out - when they got over there - that they would have to do digging and fighting!

Regards,

Grovetwon.

[Ste]

The South Lancs did indeed have a rifle battalion: the 5th, who were also based in St Helens. Your Great Grandfather could have been with them before moving to the 11th - his experience with the Territorials would have been a big asset to the Pals, who started out very short of trained instructors.

Do you know where the picture was taken Dave?

The first rumours that the 11th would be 'converted' to Pioneers surfaced in April 1915, I think, when they were in training at Bangor. There were indeed some grumbles from the men for the reasons you state.

Interestingly, the Battalion won a VC during the German Spring offensive in 1918 for some stout rearguard work on the part of one of its members, who proved as capable with a Lewis gun as with a spade. The 5th Battalion did not win a VC despite a fine fighting record at Second Ypres, the Somme, Cambrai and the 1918 battles.

Cheers,

Ste

[DaveR]

Ste,

my grandfather enlisted with the 11th on the first day of recruiting for the battalion (one of the first 200 - of which there is a photograph) so I don't think he could have been in the 5th.

Sadly I don't know where the photo was taken. It is on e of 3 I have recently received.

cheers

Dave

[DaveR]

Ste,

my grandfather enlisted with the 11th on the first day of recruiting for the battalion (one of the first 200 - of which there is a photograph) so I don't think he could have been in the 5th.

Sadly I don't know where the photo was taken. It is on e of 3 I have recently received.

cheers

Dave

[Ste]

Dave,

I wonder had he been in the 5th previously? Many old soldiers, Voluteers and Territorials joined up when the war began, and not always in the units they had been with previously. I wonder if this scenario would entitle him to wear the facing colour of a rifle unit though.

The fact that the men in the photo are in unform suggest that it was taken some weeks/months into the war, as it took a while before the 11th were kitted out. I don't know exactly when they were issued with proper uniform, but I don't recall seeing them in regulation kit before they left St Helens.

I'd be interested to see the other pics too Dave, would you mind posting them here or emailing them to me? Thanks if that's possible.

Cheers,

Ste

[DaveR]

Ste,

here's one.

cheers

Dave

[DaveR]

and here's the other.

[Grovetown]

Dear Dave

The first photgraph is interesting in this context as eight and possibly 10 of the NCOs are wearing black rank - which takes us back to the rifle battalion, and further away from the 11th SL.

Also, a few of the guys are wearing lighter coloured uniforms. It looks like KD, which is surprising, and not just the colour variations - albeit extreme - we encounter in Service Dress. If KD, a handful of regulars just back from India perhaps?

A close up of the two guys sat in the front row and wearing light uniforms (not the cooks) would be helpful, as they also could be wearing detachable shoulder straps, which would make the image pre-war. And it would help with the lack-of-collars/ KD thing too.

Regards,

Grovetown.

[DaveR]

Grovetown,

interesting thoughts. Best I can do with the centre men.

cheers

Dave

[Grovetown]

I'm no less confused. Some observations and guesses:

1. They all seem to be serjeants/ WOs - so let's guess it's a photograph of the serjeants' mess.

2. Nearly all the stripes are black backed, and some of the buttons are subdued - so let's guess it's the serjeants' mess of the 5th battalion.

3. The lighter uniforms are (simplified?) KD - so let's guess that they're regulars of the 1st Bn just back from India (Quetta, where they were for the duration) to shore up the TF. (Although why put up black rank before being issued with Service Dress?).

4. The shoulder straps are a bit clunky, but don't look detachable. Even if so, no-one else's are - so let's guess it's after 1908 at least. (Uniform changed to fixed straps in 1907, and the TF was formed in 1908).

If any of that's on the money, it all adds up to make Ste right - and that your great granddad was a 5th TF man, either before or in the war, who ended up in the 11th.

Regards,

Grovetown.

[Arnie]

I can think of two reasons why they are wearing black stripes;

The first could the battalion be the descendent of a rifle Volunteer regiment, who had when conversion to Territorial had elected to continue with the some accoutrements of the Rifle Volunteers. Examples that come to mind are the The Leeds Rifles ( West Yorks). 6 Bn DLI and the Surrey Rifles (24th Londons/Queens)

The second could be related to the previous paragraph: Some Regiments adopted their own style of Chevrons ie. The KOYLI - Broad Dark Green stripe upon a white background NCO had the 'honour' of purchasing these chevrons from the Regimental shop. The Rifle Brigade embellished the issue black and green stripes with gold piping. The same as the present day RGJ.

However as the war progressed most units were wearing the standard issue chevrons, although the Regimental ones could still be found.

Arnie

[Ste]

'Curiouser and curiouser'.

First of all, thanks for posting the extra photos Dave - really interesting.

Arnie: The first could the battalion be the descendent of a rifle Volunteer regiment, who had when conversion to Territorial had elected to continue with the some accoutrements of the Rifle Volunteers.

The 5th South Lancs were originally the 47th Lancashire Rifle Volunteers, then the 21st LRV, then the 2nd Volunteer Battalion South Lancashire Regiment, then 5th Battalion South Lancs. They definitely maintained some rifle traditions and prided themselves on their musketry. Whether they maintained any element accoutrements in their uniform post 1908 I'm not sure; I have seen harly any photos of the 1908-14 period, and fewer still clear enough to make out details of uniform, such as whether stripes were black or not. However, I strongly expect that they did, as they maintained the rank 'Rifleman' and contemporary accounts are full of 'rifle style' references.

Grovetown: 3. The lighter uniforms are (simplified?) KD - so let's guess that they're regulars of the 1st Bn just back from India (Quetta, where they were for the duration) to shore up the TF.

Sounds plausible. However, so far I have gone through detailed accounts as far as June 1915 (war diary, local press, regimental histories) without finding any reference to a draft of regular NCOs to the 5th. The 5th suffered heavy NCO casualties at Second Ypres and could certainly have benefitted from such a draft, but all the references I have found are to promotion from within to fill the gaps (including my own GGGranfather's elevation to Sergeant in this period).

The Second Battalion had suffered very heavy casualties right from August 1914, so I would have thought there was enough demand there to count against transferring regular NCOs from the First Battalion to the Territorials.

Hmmmm...

Cheers,

Ste

[Arnie]

Ste

At a further 'decco I note that they are wearing the black 'snake' belt buckle as used by rifle regiments.

Regarding the light coloured service dress I would suggest it is frequent washing before the days of easy cheap access to dry cleaning.

I once washed a battle dress in the washing machine and apart from it shrinking a bit it also was a couple of shades lighter. Which remindes me that Khaki serge used to come in many shades if you could not get a match. it was called sports coat and flannels! Different manufactures I think.

Arnie

[Grovetown]

Regarding the light coloured service dress I would suggest it is frequent washing

It seems they were a bit rough with them, as the collars came off in the tub too .

Regards,

Grovetown.

[RMAMarshall]

Just to throw something more into the mix - the light coloured jackets are not KD but fatigue dress: normally seen on cooks etc. This was made of white linen and was sometimes worn with the trousers of the set, but more often (especially in camp shots for some reason) without: this is why although the tunics look very light, the trousers are the same shade as the others in the photo - they are ordinary SD.

Richard

[RMAMarshall]

Just read the thread properly, looked at the photo more closely, and see there is also some sort of KD being worn. Apologies.

[Joe Sweeney]

Of all the troops in/going to France only RE types were issued KD clothing.

An example is a Tunneling company in the BEF was authorized 250 suits of KD (Frocks and Trousers) per company by early 1916.

This may have also been extended to Pioneer Battalions, but I have no evidence.

This may or may not account for the mix of SD and KD.

The belts are standard P14 Infantry equipment and bear no indication of whether unit is a rifle or not at this point in time.

Joe Sweeney