Full dress uniform help

[Guepe]

What model was the full dress uniform of the british army at the outbreak of war. 

Did officers have different regulation dates and were they either blue or red for both enlisted and officers. 

Edited 27 June , 2019 by Guepe

[Keith_history_buff]

Bonjour Guêpe,

The service dress of Other Ranks in the infantry was a 1912 pattern tunic in scarlet. Unlike its predecessor, shoulder straps were the facing colour of the infantry regiment, and they were a different shape too. I would image a more informed person will be able to advise as to when this was introduced, and the details of the formal regulation that announced it.

Best wishes from the UK
Keith

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Guepe

 

Most of the British Army of 1914 wore red tunics and blue trousers, but light cavalry regiments, the artillery, the Army Service Corps and most supporting corps had blue tunics, and Rifle regiments wore green tunics and trousers. Officers and other ranks of each regiment or corps wore basically the same uniform, except that officers' uniforms were adorned with more lace and were made of better quality materials. Officers' helmet plumes were also more decorative. Certain general and staff officers had an undress uniform which replaced the tunic with a knee-length frock coat.

 

Dress Regulations for officers were published in 1911 and have detailed descriptions and illustrations of the "sealed patterns".

 

On 5 August 1914 full dress was effectively abolished for all except Guards units in London. What is nowadays called No.1 Dress was introduced in 1937 for the Coronation but nowadays, apart from Guards regiments, full dress is normally only worn by bands.

 

You might also find this interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_British_Army

 

Ron

[Guepe]

What model uniform would this have been then although it's after ww1 but before ww2 and is considered full dress. 

[Ron Clifton]

Probably No.1 Dress, as I mentioned above. It certainly is not "Full Dress", which had no buttoned front pockets.

 

Ron

[Guepe]

He seems to be from Leicestershire regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Guepe said:

He seems to be from Leicestershire regiment.

 

He is indeed a soldier of the Leicestershire Regiment and wearing what was referred to as ‘Blue Patrol’ uniform, although that term really related to the officer uniform of similar style on which the soldiers uniform was based.  Both of these were ‘undress’ uniforms (not full dress) and worn for duties in barracks when something smarter than khaki was required, but that did not justify full dress.

 

British Army officers first began to wear their Blue Patrols around 1896, and the soldiers version started to be seen 2-3 years later. It was an immensely practical and popular form of dress and became the basis for a similar style uniform (virtually identical) issued in smaller numbers for troops attending both, the Coronation of King George VI, and that of his daughter Queen Elizabeth II.  

 

It later became known as No1 Dress and, other than for the Queen’s Household Troops (Guards etc), was formally made the replacement for British Army full dress (which had remained in existence as optional dress for officers only) in 1947.  At the same time it was adopted as the uniform for officer cadets at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.

 

It continues to be the situation today and is worn by officers and men when receiving gallantry awards from the hands of the Sovereign or one of her representatives.

 

Collar badges were not worn on Blue Patrol uniform until after 1924, which suggests that your photo is from between the two World Wars.

 

Edited 29 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

The photo of my great great uncle could be after ww2 then but he was in North Africa in ww2. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/06/2019 at 20:39, Guepe said:

The photo of my great great uncle could be after ww2 then but he was in North Africa in ww2. 

 

Yes, it was (and still is) a common uniform, as I have tried to explain.  The key point is that it began as an undress uniform and was not formally adopted by regulation as Army-wide ‘ceremonial’ dress until 1947.  For a period after 1947 it was even worn by sergeants as Mess Dress for formal dining occasions.

 

 

Edited 30 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

This is my great great grandfather who served in ww1 this is him probably after ww2 though he died in 1951.

The only other service he had was territorial army in the 1920S and no other known service so this remains a mystery how he got this uniform. 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Guepe said:

This is my great great grandfather who served in ww1 this is him probably after ww2 though he died in 1951.

The only other service he had was territorial army in the 1920S and no other known service so this remains a mystery how he got this uniform. 

 

 

That is a typical pre-1947 version of Blue Patrol uniform.  Notice the absence of scalloped pocket flaps (see enclosed image of the 1947 pattern and compare).

Edited 28 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Also noticed the cap badge isn't associated with a certain regiment or corps. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Guepe said:

Also noticed the cap badge isn't associated with a certain regiment or corps. 

 

?? His cap badge and arm badge (grenade above stripes) is Corps of Royal Engineer’s.

Edited 28 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Oh but it wasn't around in 1920s only 1937.

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Guepe said:

Oh but it wasn't around in 1920s only 1937.

 

 

 

 

Guepe, I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.  The blue patrol uniform (‘blues’ for short) is first seen on soldiers in Queen Victoria’s reign, long before the 1920s and 30s.  Since the original uniform there have been a number of versions with very small differences.  They were all a form or type of blue patrol uniform.  Originally made of wool serge, more recent versions have been made of better quality (less coarse) cloth, but the design has remained virtually unchanged.  In particular the back seam, known as the ‘patrol (type) seam’, has become a particular feature of military tailoring.  See enclosed image of a Victorian era soldier and note how his version of blue patrol uniform has a twisted cord shoulder strap.  Also the collar is slightly lower than later versions.

 

 

Edited 29 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Can you tell me good books on this topic. 

[Guepe]

Sorry I meant the 5 button version as shown in the photos of my relatives. 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Guepe said:

Sorry I meant the 5 button version as shown in the photos of my relatives. 

 

Generally all blue patrol jackets had a 5-button front.  I cannot recall any book that specifically covers the blue patrol uniform version worn by soldiers.  It was an undress uniform as I’ve explained and unfortunately most books focus on full dress uniform. If you ask me specific questions I shall endeavour to answer them for you.

Edited 28 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Was full dress during the 1860s-1902 what was worn during combat. 

Also there was 

1856 pattern 

1863 pattern 

1878 pattern 

Other patterns I'm still researching. And can't tell if they were officers or not at the same time. 

 

Edited 28 June , 2019 by Guepe

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/06/2019 at 21:29, Guepe said:

Was full dress during the 1860s-1902 what was worn during combat. 

Also there was 

1856 pattern 

1863 pattern 

1878 pattern 

Other patterns I'm still researching. And can't tell if they were officers or not at the same time. 

 

 

1860-1902, undress uniform was usually worn in action, often a red shell jacket, or white dyed to a mud or dust colour with mineral dyes, or tea, when in hot climates.  Sea passage clothing (canvas) was also often modified for use on land.

 

From the late 1880s, various other colours were used, such as grey, and Indian developed karkee/khaki, that began to be issued for specific campaigns.

 

By the late 1890s khaki was standard for overseas campaigns and from 1902 it was issued in Britain for the ‘home establishment’ too.  

 

The rest of your inquiry should be posted in the Victorian Wars Forum, where your queries can be more fully answered: http://www.victorianwars.com/search.php?search_id=active_topics

Edited 30 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Anyway thank you for revealing that my great great grandfather was a royal engineer during his territorial service 

Because he was an gunner in ww1. 

Also the records I requested for his service only showed his enlistment In the territorial army and not the corps he was attached to. 

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Guepe said:

Anyway thank you for revealing that my great great grandfather was a royal engineer during his territorial service 

Because he was an gunner in ww1. 

Also the records I requested for his service only showed his enlistment In the territorial army and not the corps he was attached to. 

 

I am glad to have been able to help.

 

The RE blue patrol uniform of your great grandfather could quite easily be from the 1920s.  Note how he has no collar badges.

Edited 28 June , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Guepe]

Just to finish conversation here's another photo of Great great uncle Bill in khaki Drill