Trying to find someone who I believe fought.

[jehpontin]

Hi there,

 

I have recently turned my attention to my Great-Grandfather. Having realised that being born in 1889, he would've been the right age to join up, I've decided to research him. However, I don't know whether he actually served or not as he died in 1945 (Not due to any war). All I have is his name: Harold Pontin and that he would've come from London, in the Clerkenwell/Islington area. Don't know if it's possible to narrow it down from here. I also know that he was a customs officer before the war.

 

All help is greatly appreciated

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, jehpontin said:

Harold Pontin

Can you confirm that he had no other forename ? Have you seen his birth/baptism ? Exact date of birth might help in case there's a postwar service record.

 

Charlie

[alf mcm]

He's in the 1911 Census as step-son of Thomas Joseph Thomas. His mother is Esther Elizabeth Thomas. Estimated date of birth is 1890. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=2394343&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY28529&_phstart=successSource

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[clive_hughes]

Might just be this guy: 1939 register shows a Harold Pontin born 1 February 1889, resident 2 Headley Drive, Ilford, Essex.  He was recorded as a Civil Servant: Immigration, which also seems to fit?

 

There was also a lady (wife) and three other Pontins (two males and a female) at that address, the latter born 1915, 1917, and 1920.  In 1939 they all held clerical posts. 

 

Being a Civil Servant, his employers could have stopped him from enlisting in the Great War - unless he resigned his post to do so, or maybe if they agreed to release him. 

 

Clive 

 

Added: You might find him on an Absent Voters List for 1918, but to do that you'd have to have an idea of where he was resident at that time.

Edited 21 June , 2019 by clive_hughes

[charlie962]

He was born 1/2/1889. He married Florence Davey 1914. He is on the 1939 Register as Civil Servant, Immigration. In the 1911 census he is Preventive Officer, Customs.

 

But not yet seen him on MICs ?

[clive_hughes]

Charlie, great minds think alike!

 

Clive

[alf mcm]

He must be Harold Pontin {no middle name} born Holborn with birth registered  1st quarter 1889. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=28481155&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY28553&_phstart=successSource

Therefore he doesn't match either of the men on the medal index cards.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[charlie962]

Perhaps the birth certs for the children Stanley Harold  born 30/7/15 and Raymond Sydney born 8/11/17 might clarify matters ?

Edited 21 June , 2019 by charlie962

[jehpontin]

It definitely sounds like you're all speaking about the right man. Stanley Harold was my Grandfather, Ray was my great-uncle and Margaret was my Great-aunt. I couldn't find any middle names for him and my Dad has no recollection of him as he died before his birth. Guessing he didn't serve then. If I remember correctly, he got married the day war broke out. Really appreciate your help.

 

Regards,

Joel

I also know that Ray was a CO during the Second World War which may have come from his Father?

[PRC]

14 hours ago, jehpontin said:

I have recently turned my attention to my Great-Grandfather. Having realised that being born in 1889, he would've been the right age to join up, I've decided to research him. However, I don't know whether he actually served or not as he died in 1945 (Not due to any war). All I have is his name: Harold Pontin and that he would've come from London, in the Clerkenwell/Islington area. Don't know if it's possible to narrow it down from here. I also know that he was a customs officer before the war.

 

The Harold Pontin aged 56 who died in 1945, (Q1 East Ham District, Civil Death Register) / 21st March 1945 at King George Dock, home address in Ilford, (Probate Calendar), had no middle names recorded. Looks like he might have died at his place of work, which would tie in with the Customs Officer aspect. As such there may well have been a coroners enquiry, likely to be recorded in contemporary newspapers. They can sometimes give details of life history that might be pertinent so always worth checking out.

 

As a Civil Servant it may be possible to track his career through the London Gazette - for example he is most likely the Harold Pontin who was appointed following open competition as an Assistant Clerk (Abstractor) in the Stationey Office effective 10th January 1910.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28687/page/862/data.pdf

With the demands on able bodied men during the later war years, there could be quite a lot of moves and changes. If you can account for Civil Service career moves during the war years then it might add more weight to the belief he didn't serve.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[jehpontin]

That helps a lot, thank you very much.

 

There was mention that his death was linked to a tram but I don't really know what link that has. Do you know how I could go about trying to find mention of his death?

 

Thank you very much again,

Joel

[rolt968]

Apologies! I have only just picked this thread up. Also apologies if someone else has posted this.

 

In the 1911 Census he was living at 62 Wynford Road, Barnsbury, London with his mother, stepfather and three younger sisters. He was a customs preventative officer (Doesn't that remind you of the old smuggling stories!). (His step father was cab driver.) I did wonder if he served in RN/RNVR/RNR bit can't see anything yet. (I wonder if he gave evidence in court between 1914 and 1919?)

 

RM

Alas. Nothing at all in the newspapers that I can see.

Edited 22 June , 2019 by rolt968

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, jehpontin said:

Stanley Harold was my Grandfather, Ray was my great-uncle

Have you seen their birth certificates ? They should identify Harold's Occupation in 1915 and 1917. As I said above that should clarify matters.

 

Charlie

[PRC]

2 hours ago, jehpontin said:

There was mention that his death was linked to a tram but I don't really know what link that has. Do you know how I could go about trying to find mention of his death?

 

The full death certificate will give the coroners verdict if his death was as a result of an accident. (He doesn't come up on the Civilian Roll of Honour for WW2).

 

The coroners inquest would be covered in local newspapers. If he was knocked down by a tram then unlikely to reference his earlier life, although there is always the possibility there will be an obituary. I've tried The Times but drew a blank.The main genealogy sites all offer a newspaper archive access, either as a bolt-on with an additional subscription or as a premium level subscription - never really found out as both are out of my pay grade :-)

 

In turn these quite often draw on the British Newspaper Archive, which you can use on a pay per view basis directly. However nearly all British public library services have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive and you get free unlimited access whilst on library premises. Given the quirky nature of the optical character software used to do the transcriptions I would suggest going down the library route first - if nothing else it might help with the other family members you are interested in. It varies by county but mine includes remote access to The Times Digital Archive, (hence why I can sit at home and check to see if Harold's coroners inquest gets a mention), plus a cut-down version of the BNA with selected titles that cover the period up to 1900.

 

As Charlie says, a check of the Children's Birth Certificates will give you father's occupation plus the family's home address, the latter helping to narrow down where he might have turned up on the Absent Voters List. If you can find out where they were living in 1917 from Raymonds' birth certificate and then pick them up again in the 1920 etc electoral registers, that will give an indication of whether they might have moved at all. If Harold was serving then the certificates should show his rank and regiment\corps as a minimum.

 

Just in case he was conscripted in 1918 and was home service only, I also tried to narrow down the possibilities by seeing if there was any mention of him in the monthly Army lists for March 1918 and November 1918 as an officer but as far as an electronic search is concerned I got no matches for that surname.

 

Don't forget, just because there is no MiC for him doesn't mean he didn't serve - home service only personnel didn't qualify for service medals.

Silmilarly if he swapped his role in the customs service  in London as a civilian for something in administration in the military in London, he won't necessarily have been in barracks - he could well have still been living at home and so won't appear on the absent voters list.

 

So other than turning up something in the BNA from the Great War years for him, the most likely channel for going forward is probably those birth certificates.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[jehpontin]

Righto, thank you very much again. I'll definitely look into going down that route. Address wise, I've found it's likely he was living at 2 Headley Drive in Ilford, Essex. My Dad seems to remember the address and census seems to put them there. If not, it would be Islington though I don't have an exact address. All 3 kids seem to have been born there. I also remember having seen a record of Harold's marriage in 1914 mentioning him as a Customs Officer. I'll try and find him on the absent voters list for there if possible.

 

Thank you very much for your help.

 

Joel

 

 

[corisande]

I think that you have hit the buffers on this unless you spend some money on certificates. That you can do online at UK GRO - click . They cost £11 each and are comparatively easy to order

 

1. His death cert will give cause of death

 

2. The children's birth certs will give his occupation at the time of each birth. The 1917 birth should be the more illumination of  whether he was in the army

[BillyH]

44 minutes ago, corisande said:

They cost £11 each and are comparatively easy to order

 

Birth and Death certificates (but not marriages) are only £7 if you order the pdf version (which are perfectly good enough).

 

BillyH.

Edited 23 June , 2019 by BillyH