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Alan24

Rifle Brigade number puzzle...22nd Btn Rifle Brigade

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Alan24
Posted (edited)

Question...which RB battalion did this man serve in? 18 19 20 21 22 23 or 24?

 

Probably not 18 23 24 as the medal award is not correct for service in India.

 

Most likely 22nd (Wessex & Welsh) based on his location?

 

Facts;

 

Private Herbert Sheppard 208146, Served overseas, awarded VM & BWM with RB according to his MIC.

Discharged from Hants Regt. 6th Nov 1915 having completed his term as Section D Reservist...total 17 years service with the colours/reserve! (source; Army Form B2079)

Re-enlisted 5th July 1916 to Hants Regt. (probably Derby Scheme group 43 - married men born 1878) (source: Army Form Z.21)

Did not serve in WW1 overseas with Hants Regt. He was mobilised as a section D reservist between 6th Aug 1914 & 6th Nov 1915 and served at home. (source: Army Form B2067/1)

De-mobbed from Labour Corps as 361849 on 4th Aug 1919. (source: Army Form Z.21)

 

Previously served in Boer War with 2/Hants as Pte. 5397, awarded QSA & KSA.  

 

Regards

 

Alan.

Edited by Alan24

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Alan24

Here's another puzzle...

 

He re-engaged for Section D on 19.09.1910.

 

His '12 years' would have ended on 06.11.1910 so I presume the Section D was in preparation and didn't actually start until 07.11.1910.

 

He was mobilised on 06.08.1914.

 

Why was he discharged on 06.11.1915 and not 06.11.1914 when the section D should have been only a 4 year term.

 

Did he sign for 5 years in section D in 1910 or did the war make him have to do an extra year or did he volunteer for an extra year in 1914? 

 

Regards

 

Alan.

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ss002d6252

 

Quote

Why was he discharged on 06.11.1915 and not 06.11.1914 when the section D should have been only a 4 year term.

War time service allowed a man to be held for a year past his discharge date (this went out the window post MSA 1916)

 

Craig

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Alan24

Thanks Craig,

 

Wondered if it was something like that.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

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stiletto_33853

Hi Alan,

Probably the 22nd as you thought. Made up from drafts of Devon, Hants, Dorsets, Wilts, Monmouth, Somerset and Duke of Cornwall's. Numbers around that number bounce around with dates overseas also from original batch going overseas to 1918.

Only one of these Territorial battalions to serve in the front line on the Doiran front as of 26/3/17. Some men from these battalions did also get the pair seving on minesweepers. 22nd looks favourite though.

 

Andy

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Alan24

Thanks Andy.

I'll take a look at the 22nd.

I'm probably not going to find anything with his battalion on, but looks a good bet at the moment.

 

Regards

Alan 

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Alan24
On 06/06/2019 at 18:13, stiletto_33853 said:

Hi Alan,

Probably the 22nd as you thought. Made up from drafts of Devon, Hants, Dorsets, Wilts, Monmouth, Somerset and Duke of Cornwall's. Numbers around that number bounce around with dates overseas also from original batch going overseas to 1918.

Only one of these Territorial battalions to serve in the front line on the Doiran front as of 26/3/17. Some men from these battalions did also get the pair seving on minesweepers. 22nd looks favourite though.

 

Andy

 

 

Andy,

 

Having looked at some of your other posts on 22/RB, this looks like his story...

 

Herbert Sheppard

 

Born 25 July 1878, Ashe, near Whitchurch, Hampshire.

 

Age 17 yrs 4 mths, enlisted 09.12.1895 into 3rd Btn. Royal Berkshire Regt. (Militia) at Reading. Drilled on Enlistment. Attended 1896 summer camp. Private 5320.

 

Age 18 yrs 2 mths, Transferred to 3rd Btn. Hampshire Regt. (Militia) 17.10.1896 at own request. Attended 1897 & 1898 summer camps. Private 7735.

 

Age 20 yrs 3 mths, enlisted Hampshire Regt. (Regular Army) 07.11.1898 Private 5397. At Basingstoke. ­­

 

Severed in the Boar War with 2nd Battalion Hants Regt. The battalion left Southampton 4th January 1900, arrived in the Cape on January 23rd 1900.

 

Transferred to Army Reserve Section B at Portsmouth 07.10.1902 having served 3 years and 334 days with the colours, 2 years and 218 days of that service was overseas, probably all South Africa.

 

Age 32 yrs 2 mths, re-engaged for Section D Army Reserve 19.09.1910 at Winchester. Another period of 4 years starting from 07.11.1910.

 

Age 36 yrs 0 mths, mobilised as a Section D Reservist on 06.08.1914 until 06.11.15 upon completion of his term of engagement. Due to the War, served 5 years in the Section D Reserve rather than 4.

 

Age 37 yrs 11 mths, enlisted on 05.07.1916 to the Hampshire Regt. – probably under the Derby Scheme as date is consistent with Group 43 (married men born 1878) call up from 13th June 1916 onwards.

 

Did not serve overseas with the Hampshire Regt. His length of service with the Hampshire Regt. is unknown, but he probably served at Home with a Supernumerary Company of the Hampshire Regt. until being transferred to the Rifle Brigade as Private 208146.

 

Most likely served in 22nd Battalion (Wessex & Welsh) Rifle Brigade which was formed from drafts of men from Devon, Hants, Dorsets, Wilts, Monmouth, Somerset and Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.

 

Age 38 yrs 7 mths, Looking at the Medal Rolls for similar service numbers in 22 RB, He probably went overseas on 08.03.1917 to theatre code (2a) – Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria.

 

Transferred from Rifle Brigade to Labour Corps. Date unknown.

 

Age 41 yrs 0 mths, transferred from Labour Corps to Army Reserve Class Z on 04.08.1919. Private 361849

 

 

 

Regards

 

Alan.

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clive_hughes

Minor suggested correction - the Derby Scheme was long over by July 1916.  If he was discharged Nov. 1915 the Derby Scheme was in full swing at that time, but concluded in December.  The Military Service Act then took over in January, but only for single men. 

 

Married men between the ages of 18 and 41 came under the scope of the MS Act Part 2 of May 1916.  So it's more likely that he was mobilised/conscripted under the latter Act, as a member of Class 43 (MS Act had Classes identical to the Derby Scheme's Groups).  

 

Clive

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Alan24
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, clive_hughes said:

Minor suggested correction - the Derby Scheme was long over by July 1916. 

Clive

I did consider that he may have come under the MSA.

Whilst attestation under the Derby Scheme was from 20 Oct 15 to 15 Dec 15 and reopened 10 Jan 16 to 2 Mar 16, I do belive Derby men were being called to the colours throughout the summer of 1916.

I have a 39 year old relative ex soldier who was called to the Hampshire Regiment in Sept 1916 who definitely was a Derby man.

In this case Herbet Sheppard  had ample time between November 15 and Feb 16 to attest under the Derby scheme.

I'm not sure that a man of that age would have been called so soon after MSA part 2.

Personally I would still lean towards him being a Derby man.

Long Long Trail has quite a lot on the group scheme and mobilisation dates but I've not found much on MSA groups.

Whilst there was undoubtedly overlap in the calling of Derby and MSA groups I'd be very interested in finding anything on groups and dates for MSA.

 

Regards 

Alan 

Edited by Alan24

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Alan24

One more thing...

I'm making the assumption that "enlisted 05.07.16" is the date that he reported to the depot and received his number. If that was under the MSA part 2 his age group must have been proclaimed by 5th June at the latest which seems very soon after the act.

If "enlisted" means deemed to have enlisted, then he may well have been mobilised later in 1916 under the MSA. 

Unfortunately the only service number missing for this man is that 1916 Hants number. If I had that it might well give us a clue.

 

Regards

Alan 

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Alan24
On 14/06/2019 at 21:18, Alan24 said:

 

Unfortunately the only service number missing for this man is that 1916 Hants number. If I had that it might well give us a clue.

 

 

Knowing that the Royal Hampshire Regt. Museum has Enlistment Books, I popped in on Saturday to see if I could find his missing number which was issued on 5th July 1916.

 

Unfortunately, the books in their possession start at 22nd July 1916 with number 26161, the previous volumes being missing. 

 

I can only make an educated guess that if he was issued a regular 5 figure number it was probably around '25900'.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

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