Armourer Rank WW1

[Piper42nd]

For some reason I have the notion that armourers that passed all the training requirements for armament maintenance in ww1 were awarded the rank of sergeant.  Does anyone know of source(s) that would prove or disprove the notion?  Thanks, Harvey

[JMB1943]

The following is an abstract of the War Establishment of the British infantry battalion in 1914, posted by Ron Clifton earlier this year,

 

War Establishments 1914 - the official handbook. There are extracts from it in Field Service Pocket Book 1914, which was reprinted in the 1970s. Incidentally the total was 1007 all ranks, until the size of the machine gun section was increased early in 1915.

 

Here is a summary:

Infantry Battalion (HQ, machine gun section and four companies)
HQ:    Lt-Col commanding, Major, Adjutant, Quartermaster, (Transport Officer is one of the company subalterns), Medical Officer.
Serjeant-Major, Quartermaster-Serjeant, Orderly Room Clerk, Serjeant-Drummer, Serjeant-Cook, Transport-Serjeant, Serjeant-Shoemaker, Pioneer-Serjeant, Signaller-Serjeant, Armourer-Serjeant AOC.

 

I believe that it indirectly answers your question.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[ss002d6252]

I can't recall seeing an Armourer lower than Sgt but I'd expect the Kings Regulations would confirm.

 

Craig

[Ron Clifton]

The Pay Warrant as regards the Armourer and Armament Artificer sections of the AOC do not provide for any rank between Private and Staff-Sergeant. Other regulations are contained in KR but are not clear except that qualified Armament Artificers (i.e. dealing with artillery) should be promoted to Staff-Sergeant once qualified. It would appear that Armourers (dealing with rifles and, incidentally, unit bicycles) may have had a similar proviso although it is not so explicitly stated in KR.

 

Ron

[Piper42nd]

Ron, that is just what I was looking for.  Would you happen to have a link to the document or perhaps be able to post a copy of the pertinent pages?  

 

Harvey

[Guest]

Mate,

 

In the AIF it appears they followed the same;

 

COZENS    Ernest Lindsay    396    Pte    9 LHR    C Sqn WIA 30-6-15 neck & R/side shot at Walkers Ridge evac to (2 AGH) hosp 7-15 att Saddler D Troop BSqn/Comp LHR 11-15 rtn 1-16 to T/Arm/Sgt RHQ 12-16 att Armours Artificer school AOC base 2-17 rtn 3-17 to Arm S/Sgt 4-17 to AAOC Ordnance att 9 LHR 2-18 shown as Regt Rep to the Aust War trophies museum & mentioned for his captured of a 104mm M15 KAN gun near Jenin 21-9-18 to UK leave 6-19 Later WWII Pte 3Bn VDC
 

DOHNT    Herman    786    Pte    9 LHR    2R tos 4-15 WIA 22-5-15 head minor shot at Walkers Ridge to (2 ASH) hosp Mudros 6-15 rtn 7-15 (G) qual MG Artificer 12-16 to hosp (tonsilitis) 2-17 to 3 LHTR 4-17 to Armourer AAOC Ordnance HQ ATC&DC 5-17 to AOC Depots Egypt 7-17 att 7 LHR 6-18 to Arm/Cpl 7-18 to hosp (malaria) 10-18 rtn 11-18 to Arm/Sgt 1-19 RTA early repat
 

GRAYDON    Malcolm    869    Pte    04 LHR    4R to MG Sect 6-15 WIA 7-8-15 serious at Ryries Post (G) to Orderly 1 Div Cyc Co 3-16 to 1 Anzac Cyc Bn 5-16 to Aust Corps Cyc Bn 1-18 to Arm/Cpl AOC Aust Corps Armourers Wkshop 2-18 WIA 12-4-18 L/thigh possibly shrapnel near Messines to ER Arm/Cpl 5 Div AOC 7-18 T/att 55Bn 7-18 F&B brother in Law James Henry 31Bn KIA
 

 

These men all appear to have gone from Armouer to Arm/Sgt or to Arm/Cpl to Arm S/Sgt

 

S.B

[Dave1418]

Hi

this is from someone else’s previous thread of 2013 which I’ve copied as I was unable to link it. 

 

 

Notwithstanding your questions have been answered, I’ve done some research on Armourers and Artificers in the Victorian period which inevitably spilled over into the pre WWI period that may be of interest.

The genesis of the Armourer Section and Machinery Artificers’ Section of the AOC was the formation of the Corps of Armourer Serjeants in 1858. The purpose: “judged expedient to establish a more perfect system of obtaining duly qualified armourer serjeants” in the army and militia. From 1899 the Cavalry similarly “obtained” their Regimental Armourer Sergeants from the Corps.

Notwithstanding initially most Armourers joined already trained (as gun smiths / gun makers), and by 1893 it was mandatory they be gunsmiths by trade, they nevertheless were not promoted to Armourer Sergeant until receipt of a Certificate of efficiency upon satisfactory completion of training. This was initially at the RSAF, Enfield before the Corps moved to RSAF Birmingham in 1881.

By 1915 the majority started as boys and armourer privates and on a vacancy occurring “they go straight to staff sergeant” (unlike Armourer Artificers … see below … who were still made staff sergeants on enlistment “at once”). Recruitment of “only boys” continued to “before WWII”. 

The “Instructions for Armourer Sergeants” Certificate remained the only training provided by the Army until the late 1890s. By 1900 Service Records show an apparent replacement “Instructions in Small Arms” course. However, Armourers now also undertook other courses: “Instructions in Maxim Guns” (1900); “Machine Guns” (1907); “1 Pr Q.F. Gun”; “Care & Repair of Bicycles” (1904) & “Instruction in Bicycles / Method of Keeping Bicycles G.S. – Mark I & II” (1906).

The Bicycles certificate was undertaken at the Ordnance College, Woolwich.

By 1912, Armourers were responsible for the care, repair, browning of small arms (including lances, pistols, swords, and scabbards) bayonets, machine guns, “parapet” carriages, bicycles and for minor repairs to the metal work of accoutrements and equipment generally (helmets and chains, busby chains, lancer cap chains, and the brass work on the lancer cap). [Instructions for Armourers, 1912 ….. which were the same as the 1897 Instructions ….. except care of bicycles was included in the 1904 Instructions.]

From 1858, Armourer Sergeants were attached to Infantry Regiments and wore the uniforms of those Regiments. Similarly for the Cavalry from 1899. By 1893, but probably by 1883, attached to the Ordnance Store Corps.

The RA had their own Armourer Sergeants who were independent of the Corps of Armourers. However, I strongly suspect their Armourers were incorporated into the Ordnance Artificers in 1882. Interestingly, in the late 1880s, Armourer Sergeants from the Corps of Armourers were attached to the RA.

The Corps of Ordnance Artificers (and Armament Artificers) is frequently, incorrectly, confused with the Corps of Armourer Sergeants. This Corps was established in 1882 and was engaged solely on artillery work (but formed part of the Ordnance Store Corps and wore its uniform). In 1893 the Corps was redesignated Armament Artificers in the RA. They, like Ordnance Artificers, held the rank of Sergeant. Training was undertaken at the Artillery College / Ordnance College, Woolwich.

In 1896 a number of units were amalgamated to form the AOC, including the Corps of Armourers who metamorphosed into the Armourer Section and the Armament Artificers into the Machinery Artificers’ Section. Now wearing the AOC uniform, Armourers and Armament Artificers, besides being posted to Ordnance Store Depots for general district work, continued to be attached to Infantry battalions, Cavalry regiments and RA brigades. 

The AOC was responsible for the “provision, inspection, and supply of all warlike stores, clothing, and necessaries”. Establishment strength in 1896 was 1311, comprising storemen (who dealt with storage of ammunition and spare parts), tradesmen / artificers (such as blacksmiths, fitters, wheelers, carpenters, saddlers, tent menders, electricians and welders), clerks and:

Armourer Section … of 312 (including India: 100; & 16 Sgt Mjrs (Warrant Officers)) 

Machinery Artificers’ Section / Armament Artificers … of 142 (including India: 2; No Sgt Mjrs). 

By 1907 the Corps strength had increased to approximately 2236. Armourers now serviced volunteer and militia arms, previously carried out by the civilian staff at Enfield. The more intricate mechanism of the quick firing field gun necessitated the attachment of Armament Artificers to Field and Horse Artillery brigades as well as Coastal Artillery. Increased numbers were posted to India. These increased demands resulted in the combined Armourer and Artificer Sergeants (that is, excluding Sergeant Majors /Warrant Officers) increasing to 898. No substantial change took place until WWI.

You might find these interesting:

General Routine Orders 

The following General Routine Orders, pertinent to small arms and associated equipment, were issued to British Forces in France during World War I, initially by Field-Marshal Sir J.D.P. French, followed by his successor, Field-MarshalSir Douglas Haig.

G.R.O. 1064 dated 8th August 1915

Repair and Alteration of Arms and Equipment.

No repairs or alterations of any kind to machine guns or rifles are to be carried out in workshops other than those of the Army Ordnance Department.

Minor repairs to arms should be executed by regimental armourers and equipment should be repaired by regimental artificers or in the mobile workshops of the A.O.D.

Any rifles or machine guns requiring repairs beyond the capacity of the regimental armourer should be sent to the Base Ordnance Depot, where the A.O.D. workshops execute any repair required.

G.R.O. 1081 dated 13th August 1915

Lamps, brazing.

Approval is given for the issue of one “Lamp, brazing, 1-pint,” to each Infantry Battalion and Cavalry Regiment for the use of Armourer Serjeants in carrying out repairs to machine guns.

Indents should be sent to Ordnance Officers concerned.

If you want to further your research, you will find Major General A Forbes’ A History of the Army Ordnance Services, Vol III, The Great War, very helpful. It’s on sale until Monday night, our time, here:

http://www.naval-mil...-great-war.html

State Library of Victoria holds a copy.

Regards,

 

[Piper42nd]

Thanks for the information Dave.  The link you provided resulted in a "page not found" on the website.  I did find the book you referenced on that website but it doesn't mention a volume number and the description seems to describe artillery only.  Can you send me the link again?

 

Harvey 

[Dave1418]

Hi Harvey

it rang a bell with me so a I just put in armourer in the topic search above and it came up on the second page

Dave

[Piper42nd]

Sorry Dave but I meant the link to the Forbes book.

Edited 22 May , 2019 by Piper42nd

[Chris Henschke]

As to duties, here is an extract from "Standing Orders and Regulations for the Infantry Battalion, 3rd Australian Division" printed in 1916.

Chris Henschke

[Ron Clifton]

On 16/05/2019 at 13:11, Piper42nd said:

Ron, that is just what I was looking for.  Would you happen to have a link to the document or perhaps be able to post a copy of the pertinent pages?  

 

Harvey

Here is a link to the relevant part of King's Regulations:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044048604474;view=1up;seq=168

The relevant paragraphs are paras 306 to 321.

 

For their rates of pay, the relevant parts of the Pay Warrant are summarised in this table. The actual paragraphs are 872 to 877. which make it clear that there were no intermediate ranks between private and staff-sergeant.

https://rapc-association.org.uk/Assets/User/1813-1914_Minimum_daily_rates_of_pay_for_typical_ranks_or_appointments_of_all_arms.pdf

 

Ron

 

 

[Piper42nd]

Ron, I looked at AOC in the pay warrant link you sent and see corporal and sergeant listed.  It was the second table from the end.  What am I doing wrong? 

 

Harvey 

 

Army Ordnance Corps
Armament or Armourer-Sergeant-Major 7s 0d 
Sergeant-Major 5s 6d 
Armament or Armourer-Quartermaster-Sergeant 6s 0d 
Staff-Quartermaster-Sergeant 4s 3d 
Armourer-Staff-Sergeant (at depot) 2s 6d 
Armourer-Staff-Sergeant (not at depot) 4s 6d 
Armament-Staff-Sergeant 4s 6d 
Staff-Sergeant 4s 0d 
Sergeant 2s 7d 
Corporal 2s 0d 
Private 1s 2d

[Ron Clifton]

You're not doing anything wrong, but there were men in the AOC who were not either armourers or armament artificers, and they could hold any of the intermediate ranks.

 

Ron

[Piper42nd]

Gentlemen, I believe I know have enough information to prove that what I had supposed was actually true.  My thanks to everyone who responded.

 

Harvey

[Trijet]

 Hello- I found your site while researching my Grandfather. He was In the British Army during the First World War and served with The First Royal Irish Rifles. This I know from the medals Rolls all other Information apparently lost during the Blitz in 1940.

 I have several Pictures of him taken in 1916, on his right  sleeve is the Armourer Artificer insignia . He was from Belfast and apparently was an apprentice I believe in the ship yards prior to the war.   I know he was under age to enlist and lied about his age. On his Medals it says PTE so I know he was a Private. 
 I’m just curious how a young man as he was at the time could has had a trade insignia and what might have been his roll in a Rife Brigade?
 Everything I have come across seems to say Armourer Artificers where a trade for a senior NCO.  Any information would be greatly appreciated  
 

Bill

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Trijet said:

 Hello- I found your site while researching my Grandfather. He was In the British Army during the First World War and served with The First Royal Irish Rifles. This I know from the medals Rolls all other Information apparently lost during the Blitz in 1940.

 I have several Pictures of him taken in 1916, on his right  sleeve is the Armourer Artificer insignia . He was from Belfast and apparently was an apprentice I believe in the ship yards prior to the war.   I know he was under age to enlist and lied about his age. On his Medals it says PTE so I know he was a Private. 
 I’m just curious how a young man as he was at the time could has had a trade insignia and what might have been his roll in a Rife Brigade?
 Everything I have come across seems to say Armourer Artificers where a trade for a senior NCO.  Any information would be greatly appreciated  
 

Bill

It might be that he was trained and qualified as an Armourer for the Battalion’s machine gun section.  I don’t know when these were established, but they certainly existed for the Machine Gun Corps that was formed that year as a new Corps, by merging all the MG sections from the infantry battalions in each brigade.  Contemporary photos show that these MG armourers were not all NCOs.

 

NB.  Each of the enclosed photos shows MG Armourers.  The armourers badge of crossed hammer and pincers can just be seen on some of the right arms.  All are wearing the MGC, rather than AOC badge, which suggests that as a trade they were seen as rather similar to the specialist Armament Artificers of the artillery.

 

Edited 4 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Trijet]

Thank you very much. That never accrued to me. I recall reading some where that infantry units would have in their ranks Armourers artificers that were  rifleman who carried tools to repair the units weapons in the lines as needed. I thought possibly that might of been what he was doing. He would have been 16 years of age or so, but highly skilled having been an apprentice before being in the Army in Belfast 

 and  I would think to young to be considered for the rank of an NCO.  

In one of the pictures I have of him he is posing prominently showing off the Armourer Artificer symboled on his right shoulder.  on his medals and medal roll records he is referred to as PTE. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/03/2020 at 23:55, Trijet said:

Thank you very much. That never accrued to me. I recall reading some where that infantry units would have in their ranks Armourers artificers that were  rifleman who carried tools to repair the units weapons in the lines as needed. I thought possibly that might of been what he was doing. He would have been 16 years of age or so, but highly skilled having been an apprentice before being in the Army in Belfast 

 and  I would think to young to be considered for the rank of an NCO.  

In one of the pictures I have of him he is posing prominently showing off the Armourer Artificer symboled on his right shoulder.  on his medals and medal roll records he is referred to as PTE. 

Armourer and [Armaments] Artificer meant different things.  Armourers dealt with ‘small arms’ (pistols, rifles and machine guns), whereas Artificers specialised in artillery guns, and also those fitted to tanks.  It seems likely to me that your forebear was trained as an Armourer and then once awarded his qualification certificate (a mandatory requirement), permitted to wear the trade badge.  Before WW1 the trained and certificated armourers of the auxiliary, Territorial Force battalions were not AOC, but wore the badges of their parent unit, so it was not unusual.

Edited 8 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Trijet]

I did not know that thanks very much.

[Trijet]

Thanks again that definitely clears the air for me. I wonder where he would of done his training? Would it have been the UK and would there be anyway to obtain any records.? 

I know all his service records were destroyed in the Blitz in 1940. I wonder if any others would remain at a military trade school. Also his medal roll says he was was with 1st Royal Irish Rifles which was part of the regular Army. I’m sure that is not who he enlisted with in Belfast I was thinking it might of been the 8th RIR 36 Ulster Division.
 It all gets a little confusing to me as to who Amalgamated with who as the war progressed. Curious if there was any way to find out.

 Thanks for all your help much appreciated!!
Bill

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/03/2020 at 00:36, Trijet said:

Thanks again that definitely clears the air for me. I wonder where he would of done his training? Would it have been the UK and would there be anyway to obtain any records.? 

I know all his service records were destroyed in the Blitz in 1940. I wonder if any others would remain at a military trade school. Also his medal roll says he was was with 1st Royal Irish Rifles which was part of the regular Army. I’m sure that is not who he enlisted with in Belfast I was thinking it might of been the 8th RIR 36 Ulster Division.
 It all gets a little confusing to me as to who Amalgamated with who as the war progressed. Curious if there was any way to find out.

 Thanks for all your help much appreciated!!
Bill

I don’t know where the Armourer training took place during WW1.  Before the war there was Armourer training in Small Arms factories such as at Birmingham and Enfield, with Artificers trained at Woolwich.  Training school class lists have not survived, but some prewar records of Armourers certificated have.  

 

The Royal Irish Rifles had its origins in both the North and South of Ireland and so was not disbanded in 1922, but instead retitled as the Royal Ulster Rifles.  There is a good regimental museum in Belfast, incorporating all the regiments history since it’s formation, which may be able to help you, although I unsure to what degree: https://www.royal-irish.com/research

Edited 7 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Trijet]

Manny thanks most appreciated!

Bill

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Trijet said:

Manny thanks most appreciated!

Bill

You have talked much about photographs?  It would help enormously for people to assist you if you posted them.  You can get them scanned at public libraries, or simply photograph them on your phone.

[Trijet]

Will do.

Bill